Thirty
10-15-2000, 08:22 PM
How are you going to handle shields? Most games so far just sorta count them as imobbile armor. In reality, in hand to hand combat, sheilds must be used with skill to block blows. They can also be used to attack, bash with the face (helps if your big and strong), or hit with the edges or corners.
Heres what I see shield types wise:
Buckler(small)- Not too great against arrows (small static coverage). Takes almost pure skill to block blows (no skill, no block).
Medium shield-Fair against arrows (more if you crouch behind it). Takes fair skill to block blows, a bit less to gaurd the head, a lot less to gaurd the body, and somewhat less to gaurd the legs, but more strength and stamina, compared to a bluckler. Triangular (kite shapped) ones are a bit heavier and guard the legs a bit better. Gives a bit less visability than a buckler, since it must be held up right below the eyes to have a chance to block a blow to the head in time, this problem is a bit worse for heavier shields, since it takes longer to bring them up. When using a sheild to block a blow, it is also possible with skill to disarm, or even attack the weapon arm as well.
Large sheild- The best protection against arrows you can get, at least from the front. About the same skill to block blows to the head, using a lot more strength and stamina. The body is pretty much covered, and the legs are a lot easier to defend, since the shield goes down quite a ways.
The amount of damage a shield can take seems to be more related to its quality and construction, at least from peircing and slashing, bludgeon could be another matter, the sheilds weight could also help there, at least for very large impacts. Quality of constriction, such as strength to weight ration, balance, and to a lesser extent shape, could also help you block better, get less tired, and stop damage better.
Basically, with a buckler, you must always use skill to move it to block. Your appontent must use skill to try and get around that, or to make you block the wrong place, or use their offhand shield or weapon to tie yours up.
With a medium sized shield, the head is partially protected, the body largely protected, and the upper legs partially protected, you must use skill to protect the upper head and legs, and sometimes the body. Your apponent will mostly be trying to get you to block the wrong place, often by getting you to cover your head so you cant see breifly, or a feint at one spot and an actual attack on another, or tie up your shield with theirs.
For large shields, same skill needed to protect the head, a lot more strength and especially stamina needed. Little skill is needed to protect the body, and not much for the legs, unless your apponent is quite good (or you get tired, which is quite likely).
Offensive damage of shield bashes (or just knocking back, or tying up their sheild or weapon briefly) will depend on the size of the shield and the size and strength of the basher, against good armor actual damage might be negligable, although it might tire them a bit or knock them back or down. Using the edges is another story, a buckler might be a bit light for this, but medium shields can put out some damage, although it takes skill to do this without opening yourself up to a blow. Large sheilds will do even more damage, but will take more skill and strength to do so without opening yourself up.
In actual shield using combat Iv seen and to some extent done (Society For Creative Anachronism), lets take a 5th level vs a 100th level (say, Sir Bellatrix in his prime).
The fight will be short, a few feints at most and a quick smash. Now take a say 40th level, fight will last a fair amount of time (at least several minutes, thats long in combat), the 100th level guy will probably win again, but it wont be easy. Two 100th level guys, the fight will be very long indeed. If two low level guys fight, it will take a bit longet than 100th vs 5th, but it will still be fairly short. If two medium level guys fight, the fight will be longer but still not real long (as compared to two high level guys).
From what Iv seen, the defense, shield use wise at least, rises faster than the offense, tops out higher, and starts out lower (newbies are almost helpless).
As for actually hitting, even a barely trained fighter can hit a non dodging target, so if your avarage newbie tries to attack a lying down 100th level type, he wont have any problam. A dodging target is another matter, but they could probably hit them at medium level most of the time (assuming heavy armor on both), only a few really good ones could dodge well at high level, and that was mostly in larger melees (I only knew one). Doing damage is another matter, with medium level of dodging skill in fairly heavy armor, you may not so much be trying to not be hit as to not be hit so hard. If you move cetain ways, you can avoid being where the most power of a blow is, or make it glance off rather than hit solid, reducing its power enough so it wont penetrate armor. I guess this would be sort of partial dodge, reducing damage. Combine this with a shield block as well and you could reduce damge considerably (such as moving forward/left to intercept a blow on your shield before it gets up to speed).
Also, high level guys can hit harder (some much harder), faster, and more often than low level guys. The faster and more often has a definate cap, but harder seems to have a higher cap, really skilled guys can get a lot more power in a blow. One really skilled, and strong, guy, could knock over a braced fully armored warrior just by hitting his shield with his 3 pound sword. This used a method to get the body and leg muscles into the blow, and especially to channel the force of a backswing back into a forward swing again. They dont use such blows all that often though, being more concerned with getting past the sheild than hitting hard (although the higher level guys hit harder on average).
So, might it be possible to see sheild use skill come into play? Both for defense, and offense (which takes greater skill, at least when using the edge).
What about partial (reduce damage) and full dodges, reduced of course if your slow, either just because thats the way your built or because your burdened by armor and stuff. Note that there is also a combo, partial dodge and shield block, so i guess that dodge is checked before block.
And it seems to me that damage of a weapon may be more dependant on the warriors skill and strength than the quality of the weapon, the best sword in the land wont help a whole lot damage wise (although it will some, and could be faster and less tiring). I like the idea of a % extra damage for good weapons, since a high skill/strength guy will see more effect than a low one.
Heres what I see shield types wise:
Buckler(small)- Not too great against arrows (small static coverage). Takes almost pure skill to block blows (no skill, no block).
Medium shield-Fair against arrows (more if you crouch behind it). Takes fair skill to block blows, a bit less to gaurd the head, a lot less to gaurd the body, and somewhat less to gaurd the legs, but more strength and stamina, compared to a bluckler. Triangular (kite shapped) ones are a bit heavier and guard the legs a bit better. Gives a bit less visability than a buckler, since it must be held up right below the eyes to have a chance to block a blow to the head in time, this problem is a bit worse for heavier shields, since it takes longer to bring them up. When using a sheild to block a blow, it is also possible with skill to disarm, or even attack the weapon arm as well.
Large sheild- The best protection against arrows you can get, at least from the front. About the same skill to block blows to the head, using a lot more strength and stamina. The body is pretty much covered, and the legs are a lot easier to defend, since the shield goes down quite a ways.
The amount of damage a shield can take seems to be more related to its quality and construction, at least from peircing and slashing, bludgeon could be another matter, the sheilds weight could also help there, at least for very large impacts. Quality of constriction, such as strength to weight ration, balance, and to a lesser extent shape, could also help you block better, get less tired, and stop damage better.
Basically, with a buckler, you must always use skill to move it to block. Your appontent must use skill to try and get around that, or to make you block the wrong place, or use their offhand shield or weapon to tie yours up.
With a medium sized shield, the head is partially protected, the body largely protected, and the upper legs partially protected, you must use skill to protect the upper head and legs, and sometimes the body. Your apponent will mostly be trying to get you to block the wrong place, often by getting you to cover your head so you cant see breifly, or a feint at one spot and an actual attack on another, or tie up your shield with theirs.
For large shields, same skill needed to protect the head, a lot more strength and especially stamina needed. Little skill is needed to protect the body, and not much for the legs, unless your apponent is quite good (or you get tired, which is quite likely).
Offensive damage of shield bashes (or just knocking back, or tying up their sheild or weapon briefly) will depend on the size of the shield and the size and strength of the basher, against good armor actual damage might be negligable, although it might tire them a bit or knock them back or down. Using the edges is another story, a buckler might be a bit light for this, but medium shields can put out some damage, although it takes skill to do this without opening yourself up to a blow. Large sheilds will do even more damage, but will take more skill and strength to do so without opening yourself up.
In actual shield using combat Iv seen and to some extent done (Society For Creative Anachronism), lets take a 5th level vs a 100th level (say, Sir Bellatrix in his prime).
The fight will be short, a few feints at most and a quick smash. Now take a say 40th level, fight will last a fair amount of time (at least several minutes, thats long in combat), the 100th level guy will probably win again, but it wont be easy. Two 100th level guys, the fight will be very long indeed. If two low level guys fight, it will take a bit longet than 100th vs 5th, but it will still be fairly short. If two medium level guys fight, the fight will be longer but still not real long (as compared to two high level guys).
From what Iv seen, the defense, shield use wise at least, rises faster than the offense, tops out higher, and starts out lower (newbies are almost helpless).
As for actually hitting, even a barely trained fighter can hit a non dodging target, so if your avarage newbie tries to attack a lying down 100th level type, he wont have any problam. A dodging target is another matter, but they could probably hit them at medium level most of the time (assuming heavy armor on both), only a few really good ones could dodge well at high level, and that was mostly in larger melees (I only knew one). Doing damage is another matter, with medium level of dodging skill in fairly heavy armor, you may not so much be trying to not be hit as to not be hit so hard. If you move cetain ways, you can avoid being where the most power of a blow is, or make it glance off rather than hit solid, reducing its power enough so it wont penetrate armor. I guess this would be sort of partial dodge, reducing damage. Combine this with a shield block as well and you could reduce damge considerably (such as moving forward/left to intercept a blow on your shield before it gets up to speed).
Also, high level guys can hit harder (some much harder), faster, and more often than low level guys. The faster and more often has a definate cap, but harder seems to have a higher cap, really skilled guys can get a lot more power in a blow. One really skilled, and strong, guy, could knock over a braced fully armored warrior just by hitting his shield with his 3 pound sword. This used a method to get the body and leg muscles into the blow, and especially to channel the force of a backswing back into a forward swing again. They dont use such blows all that often though, being more concerned with getting past the sheild than hitting hard (although the higher level guys hit harder on average).
So, might it be possible to see sheild use skill come into play? Both for defense, and offense (which takes greater skill, at least when using the edge).
What about partial (reduce damage) and full dodges, reduced of course if your slow, either just because thats the way your built or because your burdened by armor and stuff. Note that there is also a combo, partial dodge and shield block, so i guess that dodge is checked before block.
And it seems to me that damage of a weapon may be more dependant on the warriors skill and strength than the quality of the weapon, the best sword in the land wont help a whole lot damage wise (although it will some, and could be faster and less tiring). I like the idea of a % extra damage for good weapons, since a high skill/strength guy will see more effect than a low one.