How About Pain

[BelDragos]

Will pain be taken into account? Will it be HP dammage, stun dammage, or something else altogether?

[Slitherrr]

This is a good point he brings up... I have always felt that a pain system would be a good thing to implement. It gives a realistic basis for weapons like whips and scourges, weapons that do little real damage but hurt like crazy. Perhaps have weapons do both pain and normal damage (separate, and the two would certainly vary for any particular weapon). In a theoretical example, a whip might do 1 hp of damage, but 7 hp of pain. This is a suggestion, mind you, I have no idea what Rich and Rolfe plan for this.

[Tachyon]

As for pain,

I think that uses a whip that did 1 hp of damage with 7 hp of pain would be a good tactic against magic users. As you are inflicting "pain" you are reducing their ability to concentrate on casting...now I am not just talking about breaking their casting...but perhaps more pain equals diminished effects of the spell/longer casting times/more mana or stamina consumption.

If enough pain is inflicted then perhaps it would break their casting of the spell.

Now to conflict this the "pain effect" on casters should have a very quick recovery time. So if the warrior wants to prevent the wizard from casting he has to repeatedly whip him for 1 hp of damage (needless to say he wouldn't kill him this way) and 7 hp of pain...just to keep the pain effect...well in effect =P

Thats it for now...it would be a great tactic to use.

[Rolfe]

The only weird thing about that is that 95% of the people in the game will be wearing armor that the whip wouldn't really penetrate. Like the thick robes of a caster, Leather armor, even regular clothing would help significantly as long as it wasn't a thin cotton T shirt.

[Tachyon]

Hmm,

perhaps other forms of pain or incompacitation <===sp? I.E. tripping, bludgeoning, and other forms of distraction(of course a 300 pound axe wielding barbarion type would be distraction enough) would maybe just add a little variety to the whole comabt system.

Thank you

[BelDragos]

An idea for pain could be the infliction of tempory HP loss that never results in death, only knock-out. It could incorperated into a system that takes the use of sapps and blackjacks. There are various spells in the tabletops that inflict pain just begging to be introdiced. The pain effect could be applied to movement (sprained ankle), combat (shoulder or wrist), or just about any physical activity. I know when I sprained my ankle I wasn't very spry on my feet and when I dislocated my shoulder it affected just about everything I did for quite some time. I don't know if this level of realism could be incorperated into the game but I thought I would suggest it anyway.

[BelDragos]

Has anybody thought of any ideas on this yet?

[Crestfallen]

Would allow for some very interesting poisons...
Another thing that might result is more stragetic battles, think about being hopelessly outmatched but somehow getting in that painful blow that stuns your opponent for just long enough to let you get out of dodge.

[BelDragos]

If you get the pain level high enough it could cause the body to into shock. When I dislocated my shoulder I couldn't do anything. I didn't feel any pain because my body went defensive and shut down. It left me VERY groggy and I couldn't do anything for a while. Thankfully the shoulder popped itself into place before I came out of shock or I would,ve beeen screaming when they had to set it. I couldn't even try to walk. All I wanted to do was lie on the ground.

This is a real life example how pain and shock could be used in the game somehow.

[Dyson]

Good example. I wouldn't go for a specific system of dislocations and such per se, but I'd certainly go for a downgrading of combat effectiveness directly related to how injured you are. Maybe elements like "hazy vision" could be introduced for extreme wounds, etc.

[BelDragos]

Another thing to consider is the effects of the various spells that only cause or can made to cause pain.

[Dyson]

That probably wouldn't be too hard- a spell that induced shock could cause the "hazy vision" of severe pain levels and maybe just give minuses on attack rolls, that sort of thing.

[Dyson]

Personally, I'd like to see people start limping & such when they're really injured (though I don't know how feasible that is from an animation standpoint). One thing I always hated about UO was there was no indication of how people were feeling. Everyone just stood up ramrod straight until they keeled over.
:p

[BelDragos]

That would be a useful addition to the game if possible. It would allow the players to judge if they could take the monsters or if they have to run.

[BelDragos]

I had to go back and revive this thread becaise it is important to resolve.

Yesterday I had knee surgery and I know from a personal point that pain is debilitating. It should be treated the same way in the game

Everyone's thoughts please.

[Neville]

Thanks for bringing this thread back, Bel.

I'm guilty of having read only the "most recent" page of board-entries since I started here, which means I've done a lot of reading, but not as much as some of you :)

This thread here though strikes me as being IDEAL subject material to add to the proposed Chat on Damage that we are talking about putting on next week: would you and any of the others in this thread be interested in joining us for a discussion like that next week? Reply or email with times available... BH Staff have said that if we put together a decent list of topics, organise a time to be in the chatroom during decent business hours for them, they'll have folks (prolly Rolfe himself) there to listen and chat to us.

So far we are likely to be tabling exactly what sorts of damage there will be, what the actual combat system will allow the player to do (as in: can you try to use your whip to entangle that mage's left leg and then use your strength to rip him off-balance?), and what mods if any the combat system will build in for "special weapons" like blowguns, whips, etc. If there are any damage-related topics you would like to add to the general list of things you'd like to have hammered out, put them here or in the Damage thread, and when I get the replies I was hoping for, I'll start a new thread to cover the proposed chat.

N

[Morte]

I am certainly interested in the chat, although the time might become a problem considering that I live in Europe. I think different types of damage are a good idea, although localised damage, say a sprained ankle, would require the zone-based or similar damage system I proposed in the Damage thread. People you just set on fire should not be capable of really defending themselves, which is very intersting in combat (can you say molotov cocktail). Same holds for acid, trust me.

[BelDragos]

I'm out of work on medical until the 19th so I should be available. Just let me know or send me an e-mail.

Thanks

[BelDragos]

Has anybody thought of ways to work PAIN into the game as a way to debilitate an opponant?

[z_man93]

Here's my 2 cents.

I think there should be a fatigue level, like hp or mp. With zero fatigue a warrior would deal the most amount of damage possible, as fatigue increases the warriors ability to fight diminishes. And fatigue could also be called concentration and can replace a spellcasters mp. And a spellcaster gets fatigued as they cast or are hurt.I agree that it is completely possible to be exhausted without being physically injured. And a weapons with a high pain level could cause a great deal of pain and increase fatigue without doing much physical damage.

I would like to see weapons have pain, piercing, and blunt damage. Because having your mail pierced and getting stuck in your ribs may hurt and cause some damage, but it sure is different than having your head crushed by a war hammer.

So maybe a character could have fatigue and hp as stats? or something of that nature. And high fatigue may dibilitate and low hp can kill. Some weapons and spells will affect both, some can only affect one.

[Indigo]

hmm so you are trying to come up with a system where pain doesnt equal damage?.. If you get hit with a sword it will hurt, and cause damage..most of the time as you lose hps you lose speed and stamina as well, could that not be considered the effects of pain? I think that things like special hits with say a blackjack or whip should be learned skills.. that way the success of the hit is not dependent on damage but on a special "roll". The same thing could be used on spellcasters.. a hit of any kind should interrupt your spell. I think you are on a hard road trying to seperate pain from damage.. I cant think of a thing that will help. Sorry.

[BelDragos]

How about the effects on raw pain. A Symbol of Pain for example.

[Shinta]

I think I, and others, wrote on some pain stuff in one of the magic using threads, but it's always good to rehash things from another POV.

I think pain might work rather well as a third "meter" (ala HP and MP). When this is full, all their stats are as normal, but degrade as the PP (pain points) decrease. The amount of degradation should be scaled to the number of PP a player has. There should also, as it is pretty natural, be a way to toughen oneself up against pain and modifies (reduces) the amount of pain that is felt. I mean, a barbarian in a berserker rage is hardly going to feel any pain at all and will hardly be effected at all. Similarly, there are few images cooler than the archmage casting a long, elaborate spell, taking an arrow in the shoulder and barely noticing, whilst completing the spell. Then everything goes boom. :)

As far as pain affects spellcasting, and it should, I say that if an attack takes out a certain percentage of a player's PP, then the spell either fizzles out or otherwise goes awry. Which could make for some interesting effects for those mages casting long, elaborate spells who do notice when the take an arrow in the arm.

As noted elsewhere, there should be drugs (and drinks) that lessen the effect of pain.

As far as the whip thing goes...I would say that each weapon would have a roll as to how much pain it will cause, and this number will be modified (reduced) by the armor the target is wearing. Plus there should be a roll for a "lucky strike" where the armor's modifier won't come into play at all - e.g. a knife slips through the seam around the joints.

And, of course, paper cuts should hurt a hell of a lot more than anyone would ever expect. :)

[Rend]

I'm wondering about instant kills. Will they be added to the game. For the master fighters out there. I wanna see master swordsman trash a loudmouth no matter what spells his friends cast on him. You can make it skill oriented. So if your instant kill skill is much higher that your opponents you got a good chance a dropping him/her/it real quick.

[Dyson]

I'd rather leave instant kills in the realm of fighters who can inflict massive damage in one shot; once we get into the realm of "one-hit skill based no matter what the other guy has" kills, there's going to be trouble. The loudmouths have access to everything we will, remember. :p

[Neville]

Rolemaster (and most other systems) have a system for "stun" damage. Lots of systems kludge this together in whatever way works for them. Perhaps Brick House could consider a "Stunning Attack" skill or "Critical Point Attack" skill that fighters could master to get the ability Rend is thinking of.

Naturally, a "Stunning Attack" made by a sharp weapon is considered to be struck using the flat of the blade or the haft or something. But it makes a potentially interesting twist to the "Critical Point" one as to whether it is struck with bare hands, a blunt weapon, or a blade... "Critical Point Strike" struck with a sword would likely be doing enough shock or something to potentially slay _most_ people (although the idea of a Pain bar here that is heavily developed might help) whereas if he'd kicked you there instead, you might simply pass out.

IDEA: Have the Pain Bar represent "Pain Threshold". Barbarians and other warriors might indeed have high pain thresholds... And have weapons (or perhaps wounds) have variable "pain values". If the pain value (perhaps plus damage) exceeds the pain threshold, then anyone struck must check their Constitution or similar or be stunned/pass out temporarily from the pain...?

In this scenario, your skill at Critical Point Strikes would perhaps be added to your "pain-inflicting" ability. Now that I think about it though, you would need to buy a different "Critical Point Strikes" ability for each class of creature in the game that was distinctly different, anatomically. But it would be fairly realistic.

This would be an interesting factor in combat. :)
Neville
Advocate of Reason