Please don't make us kill bunnies!

[fredrick]

I've been playing online RPGs for several years now, and I wanted to ask/request concerning one of the later trends... killing small rodents as newbies!
Watching a grown man chasing down a rat or bunny with a two handed sword is embarrassing! I would love to see this game avoid that trend, and instead let us hunt fantasy-type creatures. I'm sure most of us fantasy buffs can spout out hundreds of creatures you would more likely see someone chasing down with a two handed sword :-)

Then again, I suppose the real question is scale. At lvl 1, just how do you compare to your average joe in the US? Do we consider lvl 1 characters to be the equivilant of a 6 year old child, or rather of your average business man who couldn't fight if he needed to? Then of course, you figure a lvl 50 character is a super-human... but then again, it's a realm of fantasy, so why not?

I vote we start out business men.

That being said, after a bit of nuclear fall-out (resulting from the cataclysm), there should be some interesting mutations to battle. Hopefuly they're more often twisted combinations of old species rather than enlarged versions of current species though?

I could of course see killing bunnies as a supply of food and tayloring material. (Use that trapping skill before you camp maybe; and have a hunting sling handy while hiking?)

Anyway, I just wanted to mention that. I always had a hard time playing a druid who randomly slaughtered rodents.

Cheers! :-)

[freejack]

You do make a good point!

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

You make an execellent point Fredrick. Nothing like seeing a 7ft Barbarian Shaman chasing down bear cubs and spiderlings.

[Wrentia]

I don't really have a problem with some of these...After all Spiderlings are much bigger than anything we see in real life. Also, Giant rats have been apart of RPG's from the beginning, as have giant bats... The problem as I see it is the fact that in some games, the newbie areas ALL look the same....spiderlings, bats, rats, decaying skeletons....shake and serve outside every town. I think a little variaty is in order.

The game mobs are supposed to be kinda smart. Using a level based system as an example lets take a look at a possibility.

The Quenn Giant Bee (lvl 10), Soldier Bee's (lvl 8), worker bees (lvl 6), and drones (lvl 1-4) move their hive into an area. Newbie PC's start in on the drones, and the Queen realizing her hive is being attacked may send a soldier and a few workers into the area to see whats up, if this group is killed the Queen may invade with a bunch of soldiers (making the newbie area dangerous and quite possibly killing some pc's). She then goes back to the routine. Next round the newbies go after the drones again, the Queen retaliates right away with the soldier invasion. If this soldier invasion is foiled, the Queen may move her hive to another area. The PC's may get a large group and go after the queen in her hive, perhaps getting a reward from the town for their bravery in defeating the Queen and her hive.

Hows that strike ya?

-Wrentia

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Good layout Wrentia. Yes that sounds like what we want. Varity and spice.

[Scrote]

Bleah, bees are no fun to kill either. I've ranted about this in the past - it's not only embarassing to kill rats, rabbits, bees and spiders, it's incredibly dull. And what the hell kind of experience is that? What do you actually learn when you stand on a baby spider?

Apart from a few possible moralistic lessons in cruelty and man's place in nature there's not much else I can see that would provide one with experience (xp).

I've also said before - the greatest challenge and therefore the greatest fun comes from fighting intelligent opponents. Mindlessly bashing shit is... well... mindless. Having to THINK when you fight something is much more rewarding when you ultimately defeat it. Please, no insects, no rodents, no arachnids, no leporidae. Even if they have been part of RPGs for years doesn't make that a good thing. Levels and static spawns and mindless NPCs and senseless repetitive quests have also been a part of RPGs (and not only the online ones), let's scrap them too I say.

S'right,
Scrote

[BelDragos]

The point in Wrentia's post seems to be that the monsters should be able to react intelligently to our actions. That involves the AI built into the game. If an enemy reacted based on thier intelligence the game should adjust to provide enough excitement. A tribe of kobolds using thier wits should be enough trouble for a character. Just because they're small doesn't meen that net cant catch you.

[Slitherrr]

Have my assurance, these guys are going to have something better than rats to kill. One of the more annoying aspects of previous MMORPG's for me, also, I cannot imagine that a town would need fifty bajillion exterminators at any given time. As for the mutation thing, you seem to have the nature of the Cataclysm wrong. The Cataclysm was a spell that split the world asunder and changed it drastically, not a bunch of nuclear explosions. That being the case, continents, peoples, and, of course, creatures have changed DRASTICALLY from the Earth of our present time, meaning that nothing has to particularly be anything like what we know. Add in the awakening of magic brought by the Cataclysm, and anything can happen, limited only by the imaginations of the devs and the players.

[fredrick]

I understand the cataclysm wasn't caused by a nuclear explosion, but rather a spell... my thought however was that the release of energies required to destroy the current society and create a new set of laws in our reality would likely effect the inhabitants of the land as well, and cause for mutations. (Hence the emergence of numerous humanoid races)
Of course the story is yours, so the cataclysm has whatever effects you feel appropriate.. but I thought it likely mutations would result. (If not from the forces of the cataclysm itself, then from exposure to magic, or the change of the nature of reality)

Any way it works out, I'm glad to hear there will be some variety :-)

[BelDragos]

Speaking of nuclear, what happen to all the reactors and weapons that we have stockpiled?

[fredrick]

My thought would be they were most likely pulled into the center of the earth during the cataclysm. (After all, what was this fellows motivation for casting it? Probably to purge the world of all the lame stuff society created!)

Who knows though... we might at some point find something lying around at some point in the game.

I can see it now: the Akazi stumble across a large rusted metal pointy thing... shine it, and hang it in their dining hall as a relic. As they bring the honored guest from the isle of wizardry into their dining hall, they point it out as an object of pride. None are quite sure why he who studied the old ways chose that moment to teleport away... there must have been pressing business elsewhere.

[BelDragos]

At least it would save on candles if the mage started glowing!!! Hahahaha!!

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Hehe

[BelDragos]

I don't want to know where they put the batteries!!

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

:eek: Me neither

[BelDragos]

To savt the pain and hassle I hope they're Energizers.

[IceStorm]

One of the funnier memories I have is not a rather large Barb chasing down a rat but being chased by the rat and yelling help how do I attack something!

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Oh so true Icestorm, a few rats took me out in the beginning, nothing more humilitating than being killed by a rat or bunny. Thats what we ask, make the newbie monsters not rats,but young monsters ie.. orc, knolls, etc... that would make it a little less ridiculous feeling to atleast be taken out by a monster.

[BelDragos]

It will help our bruised pride if we can say that we were mugged by a goblin than Thumper.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Everyone needs alittle pride, having Thumper take ya out just kills it.

[BelDragos]

I'm glad Kymari see's my point.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Beldragos, occassionaly I can agree with you. :)

[BelDragos]

We can agree on anything that makes the game better!

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

yup

[Crestfallen]

I can't beleive no one has made the obvious Monty Python tie in here...

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Oh, I believe we have all thought of it, we are just not getting it started. We had another thread that got taken over by movie quotes.

[Crestfallen]

Aha, found the thread you spoke of... Lol. Thanks for your lucid decision to not replay the scenario.

=/8^)_)I'm not dead yet.
(_____

[BelDragos]

You're Welcome

[AayJay]

I have no problem with the mass killing for such things as Giant rats, Giant spiders, Giant Vermin of all kinds that plague the land. My problem with this concept is execution. Sure we all know that this is for the nubies to "learn the interface" or "gain" levels to go out and fight "real" stuff. Vermin irradication if done right can be immersive. lemme see if I can illustrate.

The first time I log in and I show up in Nubieville on the east coast of somewaresland. I find that the town right now is actually dull. I go to the local work board to find out if there are things I can do to participate in the local social structure. I find that the farm fields to the south is having trouble with giant locusts and needs all able bodied people to fend them off! (Ahh, So thats where everyone is!) I go to the address on the poster to "get hired" and he/she gives me a map to get to so and so. I travel there fairly quickly because it's not too far away and see a crowd of nubies and probably some intermediaries and NPC's trying to kill everything thats large, green, has mandibles and moves. I join the slaughter. the odds seem overwhelming in the favor of the locust but we carry on! and win! (yay.) I collect as many antennae as possible as proof I "worked" that day! I get paid by the number of antennae. Then I'm level two and I can do other fun level two stuff like the next thing on the board.

Simplistic but much more immersive then: "Where is the newbie area" and mindlessly killing for the sole purpose of getting better to go somewhere else.

Key points hinted in doing nubieville this way:

1. Simple tasks can be fun IF they are immersive. and to make it immersive they must be presented in a way that doesn't feel so blatently arbitrary in their existance. players can feel that they are actually participating in the world if the world responds. Using the above example sure they beat back the locust but they ate 70 percent of the crops! then the economy gets the hit and the world changes because simply there wasn't enough players, NPC's that could kill them in time! (NPC's have to be there if this is concidered a Nubie task! Some are guards helping the town through the crisis and if a PK happens to try something well.....)

2. CRUCIAL! Once you do one of your tasks then DON'T do it again for a long while! Something on the order of three weeks or a month!....Yes I know...there would have to be something like 50 or 60+ different VARIED tasks for this rotational thing to work. And requires alot for the content providers and programmers to provide but it can be immersive if done right. Those simplistic quests and tasks complained about in other MMORPG's can be leveraged to good use but the key is execution! I've always thought HOW they presented their content was the problem not WHAT they provided.

The rotational aspect is PRIMARY thing that makes it feel immersive. said quest or task ENDS! the world is changed somehow even if it's only a little bit. (like ya know like in Baldur's gate after you killed Ogre dude in the mines and went back to town. some recognized you as the hero's in the simplistic dialog. Cheezy I know, but I was impressed and it surprisingly nugded me deeper into the world of the game. Such a little detail can really push the immerson aspects!)

3. It doesn't have to occur in the same physical place! None of the blatently obvious, "Heeeeres the newbies!" static location. This surpisingly kills atmosphere of the virtual world. Instead I would like to pass through and area and find out "Oh, there's a Giant Rat problem here, I didn't know that!" and maybe even give a helping hand for a bit before I go to town to deposit the wares I got from killing so and so in the high level quest I recently got.

4. With a little forethought these simple tasks do not have to be limited to just Nubies. It can be something that was designed for nubies but experienced players can join in on the fun if the event is well integrated into the lore of the land and large enough to be worth their while. Hell! I would do somethings for nestalgic purposes even though it would do nothing to advance me if it is a rotational event. Something about it not comming back for a long while would make me want to remember how it felt.

This is getting a bit long. I'll provide another post to illustrate some tasks that I would like to see.

[kenny_geeze]

Well, there's the level 1 newbie who just sort of wanders around. Once he figures out to use that chat window, he asks the nearest player "How ya kill stuff?". At this stage it might be all right for having them target bunnies and rats and such just so he can figure out how to use the interface. Or have some training temple like in Asheron's call right near where the play spawns in for the first time. I don't know what you're monsters are gonna look like, but i suppose goblins always have to start at level 1 too. Have the newbie kill lower types of the savage races until they're not a first level newbie anymore. And then they move on to the next newbie stage where they ask the nearest player "How ya buy stuff?". Then there's the different kind of player who would say "Gimme some stuff!"