Alchemy: What method?

[fredrick]

This is a fairly large topic, so hopefuly I didn't miss it somewhere else. (I caught it in healing, but thought it might warrant more discuession.)

What I am wondering, is do you have plans for the method behind alchemy? In other game systems, there are set recipes/procedures for making set concoctions.. which is OK, but I would love to see some diversity. Would it be possible for alchemy to work as follows?:

Different minerals/herbs/etc have different properties.
Yarrow is good for purging yourself of poisons when made into a tea; as well as clotting blood flow when applied to a wound.

Goldenseal increases your resistence to disease when eaten.

Something like that... then allow different items to be mixed to mix effects. A goldenseal/Yarrow tea will purge you of poisons and disease.... though that's a waste of one of them.

Also, some herbs/minerals may mix to create new effects than either would have seperatly. (Chemical reactions and what-not)

Then, a spell casting alchemist could enhance certain attributes of whatever they were making.. making it actualy seal a wound rather than just stop bleeding.


From a technical end, I would anticipate this would result in a lot of unique items which would be hard to track... maybe just assign them values for anything they can do (heal=3, cure poison = 5) or something.

AFA plants/etc which can be mixed to do different stuff, that would require a lot of time to be entered. Would it be possible for a few volunteers to put together a list, or assist at any rate?

I've always thought it would be quite cool to be able to create custom magical objects.

[BelDragos]

If I get my Mage Guild set up perhaps you would like to join. Check out the MAGE GUILD thread and mail me on what you think.

[UBIK]

ok BelDragos, you really need to stop advertising, or im gonna start billing you when i rule Novus....

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Wrentia and I already told him that.

[UBIK]

yeah, i just read that after i posted

[BelDragos]

I'm trying to make the newer people feel welcome by inviting them personally. It's too cold posting a sign along the road. It'll make them feel like they have something to look forward to when the game finally starts if they have a group they belong to for help.

[Dyson]

Fredrick, I like your system suggestion. I'd be happy to help you put together a complete Alchemy list- e-mail me.
I'll also post on this board when I've got it completed.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Aye, I would like to see a well thought out and truily useful alchemy system. Neither AC or EQ had one worth talking about, although AC is developing one. UO had one but it was fairly limited system only 10 potions, but they were better than any you could buy from a NPC.

[Dyson]

For a while, UO was going to introduce a new Alchemy system, featuring some twenty new potions and new methods of brewing and story, including Alchemy "kegs." Everyone was real excited, but then they dropped the system without explaining why.
The same happened with Good/Evil paladins, the Necromancy system, and several others- all were cool options the programmers had finished and implemented on the "test" shards, but then suddenly disappeared without explaination.
Man, I was so mad at OSI...

Anyway, enough of my Bitching. :)

[Dyson]

Okay, so I was thinking about Alchemy, and here's what I came up with. First off, there are some magick plants that popped into my head; they seem to fit with the theme of Arcanity pretty well.

To start out with, I've come up with a base nine regeants, derived from five fantasy plants (listed below).

1. Glow Leaf- a phosphorus leaf used in concoctions dealing with light, illumination, movement, and healing. Glow Leaf is the most common ingredient in Potions; it is also fairly easy to find and harvest. Some adventurers stuff empty lamps with Glow Leaf; they make a cheap (if temporary- 3, 4 days max) light source.

2. Dire Root- Ground dire root is a potent toxin- in fact, the most common "poison potions" are simply dilutions of dire root essence. When mixed with certain venoms (wyvern being a notable example), extremely dangerous liquids can be concocted. Dire root also has more innocuous uses, notably in the realm of potions that induce phasing or flight.

3. Vibrance- Actually a thick sap, Vibrance earned its nickname through its distinctive glow (bright, electric blue) and usefulness as a healing ungent when mixed with water and garlic. Vibrance is the active ingrediant in many magical healing potions; it serves especially well for closing wounds and nullifying toxins. It also serves as the main component in many potions that enhance divination abilities, such as Elixers of True Sight. Strangely enough, powdered essence of Vibrance mixed with dragon's blood forms a powerful explosive.

4. Dark Moss- dark moss is a magical fungus found in many swamps. It has numerous uses in necromantic and abjurative potions, but not much else.

5. Vitus Berries- quite rare, Vitus Berries are one of the few fruits that bestow magical abilities when eaten- specifically, a temporary resistance to electricity. When distilled and mixed with certain magical components, the resulting potion can bestow complete electric immunity for a limited time. Vitus Berries are also thought to be useful in potions that enhance attributes (ie, Potions of Strength).

4. Chamos Llirum- commonly found throughout the realm, Chamos Llirum is a small brown leaf, mostly used for tea. It has been recently found, however, that adding Chamos to certain potions grants additional effects (though no Chamos-based potions have been yet discovered). Fairly advanced alchemists have been able to lengthen durations and increase potency of certain magickal brews by careful addition of Chamos.

Noon Seeds- These seeds resemble small chips of obsidian; they are absolutely essential for most any brew involving illusionary magicks, especially Potions of Invisibility.

Mumble- so named for its debilitating effects if eaten raw (the eater is temporarily loses the ability to form word-sounds properly), 'Mumble' is a small, parasitic creeper, mostly found around flowering plants. It is useful in a variety of potions, including those involving Alteration (polymorphing, etc), Divination (treasure finding, etc), and certain poisons.

Sight Weed- another parasite, Sight Weed preys solely on the Hidden Creeper, a naturally magical plant with the ability to turn Invisible. Though the Invisible Creeper itself has (oddly enough) virtually no Alchemaic uses, the parasitic Sight Weed is tremendously useful in potions dealing with Divination (true sight, clairsentience) or any sort of Elemental magicks (fire resistance, water breathing, etc)

~

Following are the plants these regeants are harvested from:

Trees of Burning Life: These trees resemble oaks, save that their trunks are a light gray and their leaves are a pale white. At night, the leaves give off a faint glow; cospes of these trees seem to attract Will O' Wisps; the reason why is still a mystery. Three parts of the tree are used by Alchemists: The leaves ("glow leaves"), the roots ("dire root"), and the sap ("vibrance")

Storm Shrub: Typically found in fields or plains, Storm Shrubs sometimes grow spontaneously on patches of ground struck by lightning. They resemble any other scraggly bush, but are easily recognized by their small, grey berries (Vitus Berries).

Dark Moss: A slimy black-green moss that grows on rotting plant life and occasionally carrion. Found in swamps.

Dusk's Roses: A thorny bush that occasionally blossums rose-like flowers of dark blue hues (for which it is named), these plants have the strange property of "drinking" light directly, rather then draining their nutrients passively from it. Any area heavily populated with Dusk's Roses will always be darker than its surroundings; groves of these plants can produce patches of inky darkness, even in full daylight. They spawn through small seed pods; from these, Noon Seeds are harvested.

Hidden Creeper and Sight Weed: As mentioned before, the Creeper is naturally invisible (when viewed by spells or creatures that can see invisible objects, it resembles common ivy with very small leaves). Though it is of no use by itself, Sight Weed (which can easily be seen; it has red vines with orange, squarish leaves) often grows ontop of the Creeper, living off its magical aura.

Mumble: A small parasitic vine; it is always found underground, usually amid the roots of common flowers.

Okay, some sample potion-making actions:
For purposes here, X is some other ingrediant

-Grind into powder

-Dilute w/ x

-Distill

-Mix w/ x (usually means two liquids or a powder and liquid)

-Infuse w/ (different then Mix; infuse usually involves Steeping a leaf in a liquid)

---
The Alchemist does his mixing and such with different Vials (small glass containers), or Bottles (large) of ingredients, then mixes them appropriately. The final potion is placed in a large Bottle or Clay Jug (maybe certain potions can only be stored in one or the other?)
~

Okay, here's a sample potion- A Potion of Flying (I'll do more later, but I've got work to do right now). This would be a mid-range level potion.

Ingredients: 1 unit of Mumble, 2 units of Dire Root, 1 unit of Vibrance, 4 units of Chamos, 1 unit of Glow Leaf

Procedure:

Bottle 1: Liquid Mumble [Grind into Powder {Mumble}, Mix w/ {Water}]

Bottle 2: Liquid Dire Root, inert [Grind into Powder {Dire Root}, Mix w/ {Vibrance}, Dilute w/ {Water}]

Vial 1: Liquid Glow Leaf, small [Grind into Powder {Glow Leaf}, Mix w/ {Water}

-

Bottle 4: 1st stage concoction [Mix Bottle 1 w/ Bottle 2; Mix w/ Vial 1]

Final Potion:
Vial 2: Grind into Powder [Chamos], Mix w/ Bottle 4

-

Computer performs the Alchemy Skill Check; if successful, and if all the components were mixed successfully, the player now has a nice Potion of Flying.

Note: The order of each stage is pretty self-explanatory, I think, but for those you don't know, I mean for the Alchemist to use the "Grind into Powder" action on the Mumble, then "Place Resulting Powder" into Bottle 1, then use "Mix" actions on the Bottles as noted, etc etc.

You'll also note I tried to have the potion make a much "sense" as possible; in the first step, Dire Root is Mixed with Vibrance to offset its poisonous qualities. :)

Okay, what do you guys think? A good start for an alchemy system? Tell me your opinions, please.

[UBIK]

hmm... nice job, but how about alchemy with body parts, like

after grinding
stir dire root w/ orc ear in that sapy stuff
then add water... and tada magic ear soup ala ubik

[Dyson]

Actually, that's the next thing I was going to post, when I had a bit more then a moment. ;)

I'd love to see a "Harvest" skill for alchemists; ie, after you slay that Dragon, you try out your Harvest Skill- a weak score will get you some damaged teeth (maybe good for powdering) a few vials of pure blood. An especially high-level Alchemist with a good Harvest score could expect to salvage an intact Eye, perhaps good for making into a crystal ball, and maybe a few jugs of usuable blood, and some bones suitable for wands, weapons, or staves.

A really lucky check (ie, making your score by a lot, maybe a 1 in 20 chance, IF you have maxed out Harvesting) might yeild something really special, like an intact Dragon Heart (still beating at the time of extraction; eat immediately for a permanent boost to your spellcasting ability, or grind it up for use in some ultra-cool potion).

The Harvest skill could be useful for adventurers, as well- you could make a bloodthirsty sect of fighters with high Harvesting scores; they make a habit eating pieces of magical creatures to gain their powers (things like the Heart of an Eldar Wyrm give permanent immunity to magical fire; less difficult find might be Mind Flayer Pituitary Glands; eat for a temporary boost to your intelligence- dry 'em and sell 'em as snacks for mages....) :)

[fredrick]

I like the list; does that originate from another fantasy setting, or of your own origin?

It also might be cool to slightly alter real herbs/trees/etc to work in the game as after the cataclysm there would most likely be many of the same plants left only slightly altered.

For example instead of glow leaf, a glow lichen might require less alteration of a current plant as there are currently lichen which 'eat' sulfur, and others which glow. It might be neat to have a story behind the origin of each reagent.

Ultimatly, so long as they work and have a logic to them though, I think they're all cool... and having a partial list already makes things nice. One thing I would like to see is the reagents having properties (as your post indicates); but then you could mix and match those to make your own recepies. For example, if grind up glow leaf, then distill the liquid you get from that, it might be much more powerful than if you just grind it up. Then depending on which alchemy equipment you use as well as how many times you repeat various processes, it could also be a factor.

So to get a really powerful essense of glow leaf, you might 1) grind it to get the liquid... with many leaves to get a good amount of liquid; then distill that; then distill again...

Then it might be that powdered glow leaf has different properties than the liquid.

Anyway, just some thoughts :)

[Dyson]

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I was thinking of. The programmers would have to have "master list," of all resultant potions, of course, though perhaps some simple varible routines could expand on the "master list" (like extending duration, etc). Perhaps to avoid "super-concentration," things like Glow Leaf could give unwanted effects in really high doses... this was sort of my feeling with the Dire Root (ie, if you stick too much dire root in your potion, the poisoning content will become too high to be nullified); on the other side, if you have too much distilled Vibrance, potions start causing "positive burn;" ie, your lifeforce bleeding out of your body due to the overbalance of empowering energy (sort of like water; you need it to live, but too much will kill you). Cool effects could be added for this; I've got the image of light "wafting" off somebody for the Positive Burn.

I also like your idea of plants altered to represent the magical cataclysm; that was sort of my idea with the plants i designed for the system.
BTW- no, it wasn't based off any existing RPGs i know of- I came up with the system in Expository Writing Class. :) Oh, well. Games before work only occasionally...

[Rolfe]

Um, wow. Does anyone NOT like that system? I think it's great. I was actually thinking of something similar for magic research but I never had a chance to develop it as you have here. I think we will most likely use something VERY similar to what you've created here, guys.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Dyson great idea here, sounds like a very good system that could be easily modified as the world developes to allow for constant evolving of the skill.

[Dyson]

Thanks Rolfe & Kymeri. You guys are too kind.

Actually, I was planning to expand on the alchemy idea (more potion formulae, possible Harvest skill tables, listing some common, non-magical regeants, etc) a bit later... Though I'd been leaning towards not going into any detail (for fear of boring people), if the idea's getting a positive reaction, I'll definately add to it when I get a chance.
(got to deal with finals first :))

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Good,but in developing it, work with BHT and hopefully it will be the one we get to use.

[Dyson]

That's what I'm hoping for. No point in churning out a nifty system that never sees the light of day. :)

[Dyson]

One of the things I never liked about UO was that they made Dragon's Blood & Wyrm's Heart regeants you "found" on the dead dragon. IE, you opened up the corpse's inventory, and sitting there was a calcified heart and two vials of blood. It kind of bugged me. While I understand the difficulties in Harvesting monster parts, I'd like to suggest a standard set of 6 things that can theoretically be harvested from anything. To represent them, only a small number of models would be needed (i'm suggesting large & small for each), and specific identification is done by name. Example: I go my friend Penelope the Pyromancer's store (or whatever).. on the display shelf I see a small pile of scales, two large teeth, and a preserved Heart. Clicking on the items in turn, they are "Scales of the Wyvern {25}," "Orog Tusk," "Tooth of a Juvenile Dragon," and a "Vampire Heart."

Here's the chart I was thinking of; when employing the Harvest skill on a corpse, you pick what you're trying to get. A success nets you a certain amount of items, dependant on your skill level (excluding the obvious;you can only take a maximum of two eyes from a human no matter how good you are. Scales, on the other hand, can be a highly variable find- a high level harvester can take, for example, 4 piles of 50 scales from a dragon's corpse, while a novice might only get a pile of 3 usuable scales).

1. Eyes
2. Teeth
3. Blood
4. Heart
5. Claws / Fingers
6. Scales / Hide

--

Okay, in addition to those mentioned previously, I'd like to "throw" the following regeants out for judgement. Tell me what you guys think.

Those followed with Variable can be from different sources, depending on what the potion calls for- ie, both a Potion of Treasure Finding and a Potion of Strength may call for powdered Teeth, but in the former, it would be a Dragon's Tooth, and in the latter, a Ogre's.

Tooth (Variable)

Bone (Variable)

Eye (Variable)

Blood (Variable)

Quicksilver (used for aquamancy, aeromancy, divination, alteration, and movement potions- phasing, speed, etc)

Sulfur (any potion dealing with fire or attack)

Cloves (healing, curing, movement potions)

Ginger (healing, attack, defensive potions)

Garlic (curing, defensive, divination potions)

Thyme (any potion dealing with illusion, alteration, geomancy, or enchantment)

With a large number of regeants such as this, the potential exists for adding in a potion approximately whenever the programmers feel like it. :) I suggest uses be more or less consistent for each regeant, however, so experimenting Alchemists at least have chance of stumbling upon new formulae. Also, perhaps a system of "lesser potions" could be implemented; ie, if you have the ingrediants to a potion right, and the amounts only slightly incorrect, the potion works, but with decreased efficiency. This should be a fairly small "grey area," however, so Alchemists only have a few variables to "tweak." Also, to save programming headaches, I'd suggest a standard "error chart" rather then special, low powered effects for each potion.

1. Too few of one regeant: reduced duration (40% drop for each unit to few)

2. Too much of one regeant: reduced effectiveness (if potion effects stats, like a potion of strength; otherwise, use "reduced duration"

3. Incorrect Ratios: potion doesn't function, but drinker recieves a text message that it "seemed to start to work."
Example of incorrect ratios: potion require 4 vibrance and 2 thyme. Mixers includes 4 thyme and 2 vibrance, 2 thyme and 1 vibrance. Note that even after Ratios are fixed, the potion may still suffer from Too Much or Too Few (as in the latter example) regeants.

[Schadow]

Sounds great Dyson,

The only thing though instead of "Thyme (any potion dealing with illusion, alteration, geomancy, or enchantment)". How about Mushrooms grown under a magical cow pie( or dragon Patty)....These are called MagicShrooms, if you put to much of this in a potion there is a chance your mind will play tricks on you. In addition occasionally little creatures take up residence in these MagicShrooms. You must defeat these creatures to harvest there homes.

The system you have looks fantastic with the thyme, but with Shrooms in it's place is a hoot!!

Schadow Walker
"did I say hoot? Kill me now before I start square dancing!"

[The Other Joe]

Wow!

[Dyson]

Sounds good to me- I'd completely forgotten about mushrooms- they're an alchemy staple in fantasy lit.
(and they make more sense for geomancy than Thyme, anyway...)
I'm all for it-

of course, it really doesn't matter what I think if the developers don't go for it. Rich, Rolfe- what do you guys think of the system so far? Easy enough to program, good enough from an RP standpoint?

[UBIK]

hmm... you put down sulfer, why not have a complete "periodic table" to work with, ya know, hydrogen
+ hydrogen = helum, and 16 hydrogens added together would be = sulfer, 53 would be iodine (if you dont understand what im doing, its a scientific theory on how hydrogen can be used to create any element, because hydrogen has 1 proton and 1 electron, if you combined it with anouther it would be 2 protons and 2 electrons which would be = heliums 2 p, and 2 e. NOTE: this should only work with hydrogen!)

suppose you are running around the desert and are thirsty, but hey your in luck, you remembered to pickup 2 viles of hydrogen, and a vile of oxygen, just enough to make a 1 vile of H2O (water).

Arcanity could do some pretty sweet stuff if it had a bunch elements, and since primitive people arnt to smart, you could have a dirt molecule, made up of "dirt" atoms :)

[UBIK]

just think, you could be running around saying

"I've got 3 viles of MonoCarbon DiSulfide im selling for $2000/vile."

[Dyson]

Hehe... I really like the idea of Dirt atoms, but um.. I was trying to keep it "pretty simple" at heart. The logistics of forcing alchemists to deal with an entire periodic table (not to mention forming a magical rationael for each element and what it does, and we certainly won't go into what a programming NIGHTMARE that would be...) just seems a bit far. I just had sulfur in there because it fits in well with dark age mythology as a "rock of fire."

Though I cherish the mental image of an alchemist wandering across the desert peddling hydrogen. :)

[Dyson]

but then again, maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone think we should go the full "periodic table" route? I'd vote "no," but that's just my personal opinion..

[Schadow]

I'm for a "No" as well on the periodic table issue.
I had enough of chemistry class, plus it really doesn't fit in a fantasy enviroment. That's just my opinion.

Schadow

[UBIK]

well, maybe not the hole periodic table, but a nice sized one with the basic elements, like carbon, sulfur, "dirt", hydrogen, oxygen, and the amazing potassium, only the basics.

and its not programming hell, i consider myself as an intermediat at C++, and i've already programmend in all the elements with there Atomic Number and all that other fancy stuff ect.... and it only took me maybe 30 minutes....



[Edited by UBIK on 12-08-2000 at 05:33 PM]

[Slitherrr]

Yeah, but does the program consider all the possible combinations of those element, in all of the quantities possible? I mean, c'mon man...

[UBIK]

ok people, you dont need all the possible combonations/ quantitites, and also, its really easy to write a program to ask for what elements and how much for a super mixture, and what the mixtures name is gonna be, thats just childs play, then all you need to do is write anouther program (also would be easy, and very small) that would "dillute" the mixture depending how far the quantities are off.....

now maybe rich might disagree on the way i program (write programs to write for me :) ) but its just easy, so sorry if i seem a little mean in this post, im sorry if i did...

[Schadow]

It might not be hard programing side, but just the research alone to have magical potions that were actually not just Methane. Not to mention the legalities involved when some young person mixes up one of these potions in his basement, then dies. I can see the headlines now. Plus do you really want Carbon Dioxide to grant you magical properties???? Seriously. I would be much happier eating a MagicShroom That I prouldly harvested from the little blue devils that lived inside it. Then sipping on a tasty beverage of CH4 (that's methane).

Plus what sounds better??
Shroom potions for sale, or CH4 potions?

Schadow

[Dyson]

Okay, guys- let's not let this become a conflict. UBIK, I know you're not trying to be mean, and I personally think the idea is cool, even if I don't agree with its thematic implications for the fantasy setting.

[UBIK]

you are taking this to the extreame, you could always just give them differnt names, so the little kid doesnt go kill himself... and NOW THIS DISCUSSION ON THE PERIODIC STUFF IS OVERWITH, I DONT WANT TO ARGUE ANYMORE AND SEEM LIKE AND ASS.

[UBIK]

dont you hate it when 2 people post at the same time......

[UBIK]

and thank you dyson for stopping this a few seconds before i could :)

[Dyson]

You're welcome. No problem.

[Dyson]

BTW, you never seemed like an ass.

[Schadow]

UBIK,

Please don't think I was trying to degrade you, Insult you, or make you angry. That was not my intent. I appologize If I came off that way. Possibly to many years in the army.

Please, do not take any of my coments as being mean. But more of with a little humor. How can anyone refer to smurfs and be mean?

Schadow

[UBIK]

its no problem, its kinda my fault, to many tests have stressed me a little at school today ( i had one in every class :p )

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

All of the alchemy suggestions sound wonderful. We need to remember though not to make it too complicated and remember that new components and potions can be continuily added to the game over time. Lets start out with a good basic system that give us different combinations and different levels of potions as Dyson suggests, his system is the best suggestion I have seen so far and he is revising it as the suggestions come in. So don't get to far out there or try and too complicated that we won't want to take up the trade.

[Slitherrr]

Jah love mon, healthy arguments are the mark of a good relationship. And ideas are the mark of a good game. Keep it up fellas, I guess I say this a lot, but it's so truuuuueee...