Intelligent spawns in a MMORPG? count me in!

[Crestfallen]

From what I have seen so far, Arcanity is going to embody what people who are interested in RPGs hunger for most.
I'm not talking about eye candy, but about the really important content for a RPG. If Brick House stays true to their word, we might finally get a world where a story line progresses and involves us, A world where one can engage in Pvp combat, but is discouraged (but not prevented) from dishonourable acts of Pking, and a world where todays safe haven could become tomorrows killing feilds.

I'd like to use this forum to discuss this last innovation, because I really want to see this idea work in game and by bringing it up in a forum we might discover potetial problems before they occur in game...

If I understand correctly, there will be no set camps to hunt. Mobs will migrate as necessary following some pattern (which I will not concern myself with here) and over time some will congregate in certain areas forming camps which may evolve into villages which may evolve into larger fortified srtuctures (perhaps towers, castles, or walled cities). This sounds very impressive, imagine walking down the same path you've travelled in safety for months and suddenly finding yourself ambushed and robbed by a small organized group of mobs who have just wandered into the area...

But before I get too giddy about what might be great, I'd like to uncover any potential problems before they occur, just so that someone might have an idea around them.

What if a group of characters does manage to break up a monster stronghold, from what I understand it takes a while for the large fortifications to form and over time crafty players will begin to tear them down... what happens when the rate of destruction by players begins to exceed the rate that fortifications grow? Could we find ourselves in a world without monsters? Could we as heroes work ourselves out of a job? Well that's one concern, if anyone knows how this might be avoided, or can see any other potential problems, add them on.
I can't wait to see this game

[Rolfe]

Thanks for your kind words, Crestfallen. If the players were able to kill the mobs in an area so fast that the mobs weren't able to set up villages and fortifications, that would mean the area was severly overcrowded. The servers can dynamically increase or decrease the rate at which mobs organize and fortify, but that can only help so much. There's going to be a point where increasing that rate becomes obviously artificial. Monster "civilizations" would form and be invaded and torn down by players within 10 or 15 minutes IF the monsters even had time at ALL to build and organize. It would be a lot like running around the Butcher Block Mountains or the Plains of North Karana looking for beetles to kill, except you and your party would be looking for villages and lone goblins to slaughter instead of beetles to kill. That would be overcrowding. I've obviously never actually seen this happen in Arcanity, but it seems logical that what I described would be pretty close to accurate.

I think the best ways to solve that problem would probably be to expand the world obviously and also to create more things for players to do besides hunt for goblins and goblin villages. We've been thinking a bit about what we'd do if we very suddenly found the world to be overcrowded and we needed to expand in a hurry. We thought of a couple of ideas that represent a sort of general way to handle something like that.

Originally we thought we'd have to temporarily open up a seperate server with a copy of the world or else literally just put new sign ups on hold until we were able to expand enough. I don't like either of those ideas very much but if we get 50 or 100 thousand players all wanting to sign up in the first week, these might be our only options. If we set up separate servers, we'd merge them all together as quickly as possible.

If the overcrowding wasn't quite so outrageous, we recently thought of some better options to the ones above. What we might be able to do is to lead the humans into war against the atrocities of the minotaurs in the north. How does that help? It encourages a large scale PvP war, an organized one with GM's and high level players spearheading it. Rewards might even be given out for each enemy head you bring back to the king. During peak times when the overcrowding was evident, staff would log in and see that the war effort continues. During off times when overcrowding wasn't so evident, staff would busily expand the world. That's just an example mind you. There are lots of options in that same line. A dragon or hill giant or group of dragons or hill giants invading towns could be another example. All these types of things done at peak overcrowding times help to keep people out of the spawning areas. Players would have better things to do than hunt goblins. We won't know how much this would truly help until beta when we can test it.

Well, we haven't even put most of this on paper yet. These are ideas we've all been discussing when we get burnt out on programming. What do you think?

[Rolfe]

This type of thread would probably be better placed in the Developer Interaction board. This board doesn't really get as much attention usually.

[Wrentia]

To have a new area in reserve. A unknown island off the mainland. A lost temple in remote mountains. Basically you could have a couple small areas like this "landscape designed" The isle a nice small out door area, the temple a nice underground thing. Then when some overcrowding exisits somewhere, you could quickly inhabit the new area with similar strength mobs. This will take care of the overcrowding, allowing for a larger expansion somewhere when its ready. Eventually some event can be run where the isle or temple becomes what it is really meant to be.....The isle is quickly invaded by a band of pirates and used as a new base....The temple is taken over by forces of a newly awakened dark God.....

These areas in reserve should be fairly small, and there should be drops of something similar to whats dropping in the Overcrowded area. For example only the temple should be Blackburrow in size.....the isle should be slightly smaller than Qeynos Hills in size.....

You should probably have some kind of "area's in reserve" system. A series of isles could be quickly landscaped, then kept in reserve with each being "discovered" as needed. The "small dungeons" would be something similar with several kept in reserve until needed. Perhaps use the small dungeons as design exercises for new world designers keeping the best ones in reserve for future population.

Another idea in the next message...

-Wrentia

[Wrentia]

OK, this one is a little weird for the MMORPG world. But how about releaseing the area design software to the community? Kind of like level designers in FPS's. Players
could create areas, unpopulated with npc's. There could be a website that has these new zones available for download with a rating system installed. The Arcanity Client could load one of these zones offline, and it could be explored with a generic "1st level" character.

As needed, Arcanity could dip into these and extract ones to help overcrowding issues. It would also allow Arcanity an easy place to find new world designers as the world expands.

A lot of creativity is in player community's. Look at all the creative mods in the FPS world.

Perhaps you could include npc design and all the tools necessary to make a complete populated zone. Then people could download and play a zone offline with a generic character of any level.

I'm kinda rambling now, so I'll stop....

-Wrentia

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Interesting idea Wrentia, I think one of the other up coming mmorpg's is going to do that, though I can't remember which one. They are planning a open source code so players can alter landscape etc.

[Rolfe]

I think that was Never Winter Nights. They went under though. They had some good ideas too.

[BelDragos]

That sounds like fun. It would allow us to get our hands dirty and experience the headaches that you went through. It would also allow us to add something to the game that other people might enjoy.

[Thirty]

There is one lil problem with that, it allows the player designing whatever to put in that secret loot that only they know about, etc. It might still be possible, if they were limited in what they were able to put in, or there was ways for the Brick team to easily spot that secret stash.

[Crestfallen]

Thanks for listening Rolfe, doesn't matter how much players input if it just gets ignored. Great to know that I'll be escaping from Verant via a game created to be enjoyed. If you want to move this thread to the dev. interaction board I'll be happy to type my messages there.

From what I understand the populations in Arcanity will be migratory, will there be some type of ecology? not that it would really be necessary but it might be interesting for an observant player to notice a gradual decrease in the population of one species and deduce the arrival of it's (un)natural predator, or perhaps an outbreak of plague could follow an increase in the local vermin population.

Well, that's just one more idea I thought I might throw into the mix. Thanks for everyone's tolerance, and input. Maybe I'll see some of you in chat.

[Crestfallen]

I hate to follow my own reply with another, but I just realized what might solve the problem with player created treasure hoards if there were some type of MOD software in Arcanity...

Intelligent mobs that migrate. If someone created a MOD and threw in a secret stash for himself then it's quite possible someone would get there first, and in Arcanity it wouldn't be just any someone. Imagine the suprised look on his face when he walks into his secret passage and realizes he has just done himself the favor of arming a band of Ogres. The only thing he'd really get out of it is the joy of a difficult CR, especially if one of his items enabled the mobs to see invis. Of course, the Arcanity CMs would have to thoroughly examine each addition to ensure play balance, and maybe allowing perhaps a week of NPC and CM only habitation would allow mobs to acquire hoards and establish small encampments making the exploration that much more interesting.

[Edited by Crestfallen on 11-21-2000 at 06:10 AM]

[Wrentia]

If the MOD software is designed right, the Brickhouse folks would know what is on each monster before they put it in. Also, remember I offered two options...

1. Outdoor/Dungeon design, unpopulated.
2. Full design inclufing population and loot.

The trick is to make it so players can't use their game characters to give them selves nifty loot offline...The answer of course is to leave no player character data on the players harddrive, which is done by most games anyway.

-Wrentia

[BelDragos]

It still sounds like fun. Imagine making a valley where a horde of critters are worshiping a Big Nasty. The quest to rid that valley of the menance could be named after you and you would become part of the game.

[Generic]

I have written many MUD"s Mush's etc and its a load of fun to have folks enjoy exploring an area you created..to me exploring it myself (unless it was changed by the developers) would ruin the purpose.....I know whats there..unless I was power gaming it would be like....well like (lets think of a polite way to say this)..well I'm not going to put what it would be like in print but I think you can guess....

[BelDragos]

I bet!!!

I still think having something named after you would be cool.

[Generic]

Quest for the Book of Beldragos...Expedition to the Beldragos Peaks...it could work

[Terram]

Originally posted by Rolfe
I think that was Never Winter Nights. They went under though. They had some good ideas too.

They did not go under, the release is tenatively for Summer 2001.


Terram
*wanders back into the back log of posts to browse*

[Crestfallen]

Does anyone have an opinion about unique mobs? I'm sure everyone here plays has played or at least has heard about Eq, so I'd like to use it as an Example. Cazik Thule, god of fear, sounds scary right? His mere touch almost guarantees one's death. Yet, Cazik Thule was once brought to his knees by several groups of noble heroes who banded together to slay him in his home, the plane of fear. And then twenty-four hours later he respawned... So these brave heroes once again sallied forth to face him in mortal combat and once again emerged victorious. For nothing more than to save the innocent from the lord of nightmares did these brave heroes venture forth (unless you count the incredible items Cazik seemed to carry around with him) and face him. Well here's my question, does anyone else have a problem with unique mobs which would constitute any named creature, including the guards in Eq, popping back up hours after being dismembered? I know a game is a game, but why does a mob intended to be hunted need a name, and if a Mob or NPC is to be named shouldn't there be some reason behind their importance, either they should be powerful enough or protected by legal code so that it would be unwise for a PC to kill them. If a named Npc dies though, shouldn't that Npc stay dead, perhaps there could be mourners of the Npc or perhaps another Npc with a different name could step up to take on the role of the deceased, but again using Eq as an example how does this Watchman Halv guy keep popping back up at the Steamfont Crossroads, and why hasn't he learned yet to very very afraid of wolves?

[Generic]

I agree the dead should remain dead..and new enemies can spawn from the ashes of old ones...even the defeat of the shadows in B5 did not end the reign of terror caused by their followers....

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Good point Crestfallen

[BelDragos]

The dead monsters should regenerate only if there is a specific reason for it to do so. The casting of spells, magical items, and regeneration ability like Trolls possess are some examples that could be exceptable.

The point I'm trying to make is that there shouldn't be random enemies regenerating without a reason.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

I think everyone pretty much shares the same opinion on this one Bel, when we as a group get together to take out one of the big badguys we want him to stay dead. Let a new leader stepup and takeover the evil horde, instead of the old one respawning.

[Slitherrr]

Also, another facet of the same idea, if the leader of a horde was to be defeated, it would most likely signal the degeneration of that horde, maybe cause some infighting and certainly cause a lot of confusion. The death of a named hero should signal some sort of change in the world, not that life goes on and the guy comes back. Maybe an exception could be for the Anti-Heroes (mentioned in another thread, where if there are heroes that come back from the dead, there should be heroes against those heroes that do the same), but that may be a little harder to work in a way that makes sense.

[Thirty]

Your right, if the leader goes, and we are talking monsters here, they may tend to fight each other for leadership. They may only be held together by the charisma of the leader, by fear of a stronger leader (common among some types, example wolves), or perhaps by my idea if a great evil somewhere that gives out evil vibes to subleaders, who then run the horde, and who if killed cannot then pass on the evil vibes to keep the horde together and motivated. This later idea may only happen as you get closer to the evil area however, farthur away the evil vibes may be only enough to affect the leutenant, who must then use charisma and fear to get followers.

If some named critters are killed, even if they come back, they may not come back anywhere near where they were killed, it may take them some time to come back at all, and also may come back in a different body. My idea was because their god(s) are not creater types, and so must get some body for whatever it was from somewhere, say another world, or take over some monsters body. Mainly I like this idea because it makes for veriety :) and makes for an excuse to have people come back one way and monsters come back a different way (if at all). This toe ways to ressurect thing has advantages for anti PK measures, to much PKing and you have problems coming back (penalties, losing more items, perhaps other things).

One thing is true, the monster wont "respawn" like in AC or EQ, since here things dont spawn, they move in. It does have the advantage that it is actually possible for people to gain territory from the monsters, unlike the other static spawn games where they just pop back up. If we clear an area, the only way it will be remonstered (look that one up) is if the monsters infilterate back in from somewhere else. This will give us a sense of accomplishment you dont get in other games, where you knock them down and they pop right back up again.

If we resurect, we could do so at designated points we could build, like temples or even small shrines. Since these could be destroyed by monsters, we would have to protect them, by say put them in a city or fort. This is to assure we dont hafta start all the way back at the beginning point if we die but the monster territory has been pushed back by players. We can build our own resurect points, we then resurect at the nearest one, and can expect that if monsters find an ungaurded resurect point, they will destroy it (possibly it radiates good vibes which even dumb monsters hate).

This would mean if players want to start a new but distant city, they could gather together, fight their way to the area, and first thing, make the resurect shrine and some basic fortifications to protect it, possibly bringing some NPCs to man it, so someone will be there after they log (ubless this is one of those worlds that are persistant, you are still here after log). These shrines could then be things people fight over territorily, at least with the monsters.

Hmm, if some monsters resurect, would they need shrines, and could we then attack them? But it could be one way for people, resurrection, and another for bad guys, possess a body somewhere. And the vast horse of regular unnamed monsters would have one life only, which might be why they need evil vibes to risk their precious bods attacking us. Kill their local leader, who has the vibes, they scatter.

And as for all this epic good versus evil stuff, there may be some critters not on either side. They may have their own ways, trolls for instance might regenerate, that sort of thing. Even in an epic good versus evil thing, there can be lots of critters who dont really want to join sides, talking trees, some kinds of monsters and races. The one good thing about the epic struggle idea is, if the main evil is far enough away, you can just have minor evil close by for now, and you dont even have to make (do art on) the main evil, or even the stronger evils as you get closer, for quite some time.

[Thirty]

Come to think of it, it would be good if we understood where the players stand on spawning as well. That is, what happens to use when we log off? There are at least two possibilities. One is the persistant method, we log but our players body goes on as an NPC till we get back. The other is the more common idea from other games, we appear and dissapear (in those other games, its usually with rather thin excuses for this odd behavior).

Theres always my idea. The NPCs built a shrine, prayed for heros to protect them from the growing hordes of strange monsters, and poof, one of use heroes appears, summoned by the gods from the land of Rhee Ahlif (RL, or it could be named Ahr El). It would expalin how we appear and dissapear, and could also explain the resurection shrines. If we are good heroes, and dont PK each other, rob NPCs, etc, they keep praying and we keep coming back (resurecting), if we dont, they pray for someone else and we get penalties and such for resurecting, maybe even resurecting farthur away where the NPCs dont know us (with problem of then having to get back, especially if you need to get your stuff back). Of course, being a good hero may mean killing the monsters, and not dying all the time, so if you die 10 times a day you may not be covered.

If we thus appear in this world one way, and the monsters another, it can explain why heroes appear and dissapear (spawn sorta) and monsters (and NPCs) dont. The named monsters could be different yet, perhaps they have their own shrines, or appear waaaay back at only one central shrine or area. Also, we may appear back in our own body, they may have to get a new body, grow one, possess one, summon one from beyond, etc.

[Edited by Thirty on 11-26-2000 at 10:14 PM]

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

I don't think I like the idea of my charactor being played as a NPC when I logged off. Its easy to say when we log off that we are camping for the night and going to sleep. Its a little hard to truily explain away everything that happens in game. All though we are looking for realistic play not everything must be explained away in game for after all it is a game and we all know this. The in game AI doesn't care what we do to explain why something happens.

[Dyson]

It probably wouldn't be hard at all to implement a "switch" of sorts, if enough people wanted the AI running their character when their gone. People like Kymeri (and myself, on a personal note) could have their characters disappear as per normal, whereas those who wanted to having their characters wandering about, or research spells in the library, or whatnot, could do so. Personally, I like the idea of walking into a library and seeing several magelings from around town paging through books for hours, never speaking (though of course, any sort of activity taken when you are logged off should give you much less gain.. Ie, a spell that would take ten minutes of in-game time to research takes 5 hours when you're logged off, etc).

[BelDragos]

That "switch" you were talking about might be a good idea especially for training and other not-fun time consuming actions. Also Thirty makes some rather good suggestions.

[Thirty]

Speaking of "switch", found this thread, some good ideas about switch, also other ideas (its rather long and some of the ideas are less good, but interesting).

http://www.lumthemad.net/rdot.html

The basic idea was you set your actions to do offline, log off, your caracter dissapears from the world( so as not to have confusion between logged on and off ones, and so as not to get killed), and does the actions. Stuff like research, tavel, trade skills (great for that), and sleep.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

I don't know about that. I am not sure that you should be able to do things that give you gain while you are offline, even at a decreased gain. Thats just making macroing legal in the game, boy would powergamers love that. Although BHT is trying to cut down on the more tedious/downtime issues in game I think making macroing legal would be going to far.