style of combat

[toray]

Hey devs, I like the attitude you bring to the table.

You might want to replace "runes" with "ruins" in your spiel about the gameworld, though... exploring runes generally requires a magnifying glass and good lighting :)

My question involves styles of combat. As you're no doubt aware, AC (the only graphical mud I've played) has my swordsman click attack, and then I watch as my character repeats the same move and the monster repeats the same move until one falls down.

Your skill system hints sound intriguing - I'm hoping that combat will involve some variation.. in AC, I walk into a group of olthoi and read websites on my laptop whilst occasionally clicking the mouse over the attack button in the game.

I've a pile of other questions, but rather than swamp the board, I'll wait for discussion of this topic to end before starting a new one :)

Cheers,
Toray

[Saint Faucet]

Hey, AC has some variety in its attacks. I mean you can choose from a high, medium or low swipe... that all look relatively the same animation-wise. :)

I personally hate the fact that AC doesn't let you play with paired or two-handed weapons. That alone would add some more variety to their attacks.

[Gratto]

Yea I agree. I would love to see more graphic attacks, even if they are handled the same by the server. (damage wise) One thing I would love too see is some sort of presice targeting. Example: Target his left arm, or right foot. Granted I would agree that this would carry a lower percentage to score a hit, but I think it would rock. Also maybe some specitaly(SP) moves like trip, boot to the head, high kick, stuff like that.

[Slitherrr]

Multiple animations for each maneuver, ahhh, I can see it now, beautiful beautiful. And maybe one of the maneuvers should be a move where you grab the guy and hold him, so someone else can come in and stab him. Or how about lassos and stuff that you can use to tie em up, tie em down, tie em to posts, tie em to your ex-wife, or whatever.

[joe]

Do you know what I think would be neat-o? I think insted of fancy smancy graphics, that would be entertaining for about an hour maybe, how about improving on the combat system overall? I think thats what the first guy was getting at, I forget his name there, the first poster for this topic (or she if it was a girl, I dont remember). On the Archeon site the guy there, Userbusi, hes in charge of there combat system, said something that made alot of sence. He says that there has been vast improvements to the magic systems and none to the combat. Combat systems are dull and boring because when they were made for paper and pencil games the DM didnt want to roll even more dice because the current system already takes a very long time.But now we got these super fast computers that can handle all the numbers in microseconds, so a changes he will make. I personally have never played paper and pencil so I dont know, but that Userbusi, he seems to have his head screwed on right so I'll believe him (although his combat system seems alittle action orentated, I guess thats one way of jazzing it up). Of course his game is coming out in 2004, and thisone, what? around christmas or early '01? What could you do to make combat more involving (beyond the powre-slider bar and med-high-low hit of AC). I refuse to believe thats as good as it gets. I know UO2 has the whole combo twirling back assualt and other crazy manuvers, but come-on, manuvers smuvers, every game I played I spent 90% of the time killing things, which like first guy says is very boring. We need to think outside the box here, theres got to be some way to make combat in mmorpgs somewhat exiting or atleast interesting, without turning it into an action game or whatever. Am I crazy for thinking this? I know first guys with me. Hes pretty tough, I think together we could beet up everyone on this board. What do you think first guy? Alright, seriosly, could it be done? I have some ideas but im a greedy bastard. And if it can be done is it to late to put it into the game? Are you guys to far along in developement to incorporate the new, mind blowing, attention grabbing combat system? (I like how I dont even know your system yet and am wondering if you can change it, what the hell is wrong with the world? people cant even be satisfied about something we dont even know anything about.) Well your game looks good so far, I know ill try it, good luck and god bless. B-bye
Jpe

[Saint Faucet]

The whole goal of a fight is to hurt the other person really badly. I believe it is this single-minded approach to combat which keeps most systems 'static' and thus 'boring'. There may seem to be more reasons behind the fight on the surface (such as anything from dueling to self-defense), but ultimately it all boils down to hurting your opponent. I mean honestly, you're either attacking an opponent's physical presence (body) or you're attacking their mental imagery (ego). Therefore, fighting is deemed a straight-forward circumstance and thus most combat systems reflect this.

When you're dealing with Magic, you have a whole different ballgame thanks to its wide variety of uses and reasons. True, you could be using it in the same vein as the physical fighting and thus trying to hurt your opponent with offensive spells... BUT, you could also use it to heal your 'opponent'. Or maybe, you're using it to create rain for plants. You could be using it to play practical jokes or even to visually illustrate a literary work. Who knows? Unlike the straight-forward single-mindedness of combat, the possible uses of a magic system are solely limited by it's creator.

I'm not even going to attempt to say I have an answer to remedying the usual click-swing combat systems. I just think it'll be very difficult to come up with something new and 'outside the box' when the idea behind combat is so straight-forward.

[Scrote]

Some very good questions have been raised on this thread, combat is crap in most online rpgs (haven't played them all so can't say 'all', but I suspect that's true).

I disagree with the idea that combat is straight-forward. If designers are approaching combat this way then it's no wonder they're screwing up. Combat should be one of the most exciting things to happen in a fantasy RPG. The genre revolves around conflict and most of the time that conflict is resolved by combat.

I must digress here and say that I think that there are other areas which can be just as exciting as slicing someone up or tearing their castle down. Things like politics, intrigue, burglary... but that's another subject altogether.

As far as physically duking it out with someone there's a couple of things to consider.

1) You can make it a twitch game, where you pretty much control everything your avatar does. Die by the Sword, Quake, Action Half-Life - those are examples of twitch games. This is pretty good, it would make the game more immersive since you really ARE controlling your PC. On the other hand it also rewards a certain type of player, and most people who play RPGs aren't that certain type of player.

Doing this would give an advantage to the twitch crowd and that is bad. But is it SO bad? More on this in a sec.

2) You can let the computer take over with minimal input from the player - EQ, Asheron's Call are examples of this, and this is the problem we're trying to solve in this thread. The minimal input style is proving to be pretty bland. You don't really get the sensation that you're affecting the outcome of the combat in any way and you don't really get to do "cool shit" either. It's good to do cool shit!

So how can people get to really dive into some serious action without making the game into an RPG Quake? Well I believe compromise is the way to go.

The possibility exists to create a system that does require a certain amount of interaction and input. Without going into great details here because this is something that requires a lot more thought and discussion I would suggest something along these lines - To swing your sword/axe/mace/fist you move the mouse in a certain way while holding down the attack button. The direction and speed of your attack would be determined by how you move the mouse. Hold down a different key and you do a "secondary attack". Or whatever. That was NOT an attempt to lay down the rules for this system, just an example of what I'm getting at.

Now you'll find that for some people this requires a little too much of the ol' hand-eye coordination. Perhaps even to the point where you would get people crying "this game rewards twitch players!". Well ... yes. Why not? To a certain degree maybe the system should reward twitch players, in a way it makes sense when it comes to combat. You want your PC to do amazing things, give people the opportunity to do so.

NOT so you can have someone be utterly devastating simply cuz they just snorted half a gram of Colombia's finest. This is important to note here: Someone who's good at this system can only be SO good. In other words, while it may take some skill to be good at it, there's limits to how much skill this requires. Zipping your mouse in forty directions while pressing 8 other buttons at once won't do shit for you. I hope you see what I mean.

The actions that you can perform will improve as your PC improves. Just as it says in the "Game" link to your left. You'll be able to tell a powerful swordsman from a klutzy newbie in an instant simply by watching the badass stuff they do in combat. In other words - let's say you start off with the good old slash and stab moves with a short sword. As you practise and improve you start to learn more moves and the required mouse movement/button press to perform it. This is a good concept and it makes perfect sense.

Now I must address the twitch-players issue. I do believe this system could be unfair to some players. The idea is to balance it and tweak it so it's unfair to as few as possible. Like I said, set limits on how kickass people can be regardless of their ill skillz. But to those to whom it is still unfair, well... I say 2 things:

1) Have it so the system allows the computer to take over in combat. This is for people who don't want to specialize in fighting and learn all the badass tricks, but want to be able to at least defend themselves. This will result in less effective fighting, but for most intents and purposes it'll suffice.

2) Why not go the magic route? This is blurring the lines between real life and roleplaying, but if someone isn't physically capable of playing a fighter type they should always have the options of doing other things. Whether this be becoming a high-level politician/bandit-lord, or a powerful spell-caster there should always be alternatives.

This is a long and convoluted post so I'll summarize the thoughts I've outlined:

* The system I'm proposing would require that players possess a certain level of hand-eye-coordination and the ability to bind keys to perform actions and press the right ones in the heat of the battle.

* As you advance in skillZ you gain the ability to successfully perform new moves.

* I have absolutely no clue how to actually come up with the details of what would physically be involved to make this work well. My "press button move mouse" thing was - at best - a basic idea used to illustrate an example.

* There should be "cool shit" in this system. Triple whirling backwards Katana attacks! Two-handed dagger twirling eyes-impaling tricks! Mighty barbarian roaring decapitating moves! And so forth.

* There should be alternative systems for people who just ain't into this. The computer can take over, like in EQ, AC etc, and/or they can turn to magic, politics, becoming a merchant king, etc.

* This system is just a proposal. I'm interested to hear what thoughts this sparks, if any.

"And that" said the scrote, "is all."

Comments? Suggestions?

S'right,
Scrote

[Edited by Scrote on 09-08-2000 at 09:09 PM]

[Lordosis]

Woah man, this is a HOT TOPIC!! You are all putting a lot of thought into this. We struggled with this issue a lot already. It's a tough problem to solve. The root of the problem is that we don't want to penalize the "non-twitch" players. When we first sat down to design Arcanity, we considered having a nearly full "twitch" system. But we had to scrap that idea since it should be your character's combat skills and not your mouse skills that determine your combat effectiveness.

The other side of the argument is..... well, if you've ever played EQ or AC you already know the other side, completely computer controlled combat is BORING!! Some nice animations besides the same hack and slash for the life of your character would be nice, so we ARE going to have some of the eye candy; there will be some fancy animations to keep your eyes occupied.

But that's not enough, since it would just be EQ's combat with some animation. And AC's "3 level" melee system doesn't do much for me. So here's what we are doing as of now: We have a solid standard melee system for basic melee. The system based on different stats and skills other RPG's but it's still an "auto attack" type system. That takes away the huge advantage the Quake-meisters would have if melee was twitch. For example, when I play Corellian Knight (another Brick House programmer) in Quake 3, I get about 1 frag for every 10 of his frags. But at least I respawn immediately and life goes on. Not so in an RPG, where death has consequences.

To extend our system there are going to be "special moves". No, not necessarily dragon punches and hurricane kicks. I'm talking about special combat skills. The main one we have planned is wrestling. Real wresting, greco-roman style, not WWF. So you could do a choker hold that, depending on your wrestling skill, would drain your oppents agility (for the duration of the hold), stamina, or HP. So it has the same effect a spell might have. Hopefully, with skills like this one, we can make combat a little more interesting.

There's another issue with twitch melee in RPG's that no one has brough up: PING TIMES!! When you play FPS games, what do you do? Well, you either play on your LAN or your school's/work's LAN, or you find the games on the internet with the lowest ping times. But in a MMORPG, you can't limit the players you play with to those with low ping times. You have to play with all players, even people dialing in from Afganistan on a 28.8 modem with a 1 second ping time.

So internet latency rules out a full twitch system, but what about a system like Scrote suggested with the crazy mouse movements? I couldn't picture using such a system, but it's probably because my mouse sucks because the rollers have dust caked on them. I need one of those infared mice, but that's a different problem. Back to the topic at hand, even if I cleaned my mouse rollers, any mouse I've ever used starts to not repond well if you move it really quickly. Usually it will only move one direction quickly, and not in the other direction. Maybe I've just allways had crappy mice, I dunno. I also have a hard time seing how the comptuer is going to recognize the difference between enough movements to make it worthwhile. Well, let me qualify that. I understand how to make it happen in the code, but I just don't see the possibility for THAT many moves with such a system. Man, I still can't do Zangief's screwdriver more than 1% of the time, and that's on a very strictly movement-limited control pad or joystick. On a completely free moving mouse, I wouldn't have a chance. Maybe it's just me, so we should get some other opinions.

To address Joe's concerns, we have a very open code design that allows for most things to be changed/upgraded without much fuss. So if we saw good reason to change something, we good do it. Also, we're not against adding features after release (just the opposite, in fact). So if a system isn't as interesting as it could be and everyone wants it chenged, it could still be done.

[Rolfe]

Wow, this is a popular thread. It took me a good 30 minutes just to read through and digest all of that. On the original Cataclysm (our old name before Sierra kindly threatened to sue us. Seems they have a mediocre sequel to their mediocre game Homeworld coming out that happens to be named Homeworld: Cataclysm, and they had it first) message boards, one of the original memebers posted a similar question. I can't remember who it was, Uncle Dukey or Slitherrr or one of those fellows. Unfortunately the old messages were lost by the old server host before I could answer it.

Some of the points you guys have made have been debated out by us here at Brick House more than once. I guess the general consensus is that a Twitch based RPG would be very cool, but we're going to leave it for Carmack. There are a lot of reasons. For one thing, it's supposed to be an RPG and we don't want some level 1 who's really good on the keyboard and mouse to be able to take out a level 10. The LEVEL, not your speed on the joystick, is supposed to represent your character's skills, right? Note there are no levels in Arcanity, but it's easier to relate that example using levels. I like Scrote's idea of some sort of comprimise, but there are other issues. On Everquest, playing on a cable modem, I used to get half second ping times on some occasions. Before that, I was on a dial-up with a 28.8 and I don't think I ever got BELOW half second ping time. Ping time is really important in a twitch type game and if your speed with the mouse counts, the ping time is going to make it hell, especially for people with dial-ups.

Now the good news is that the original post on the Cataclysm message board got me thinking as to just how boring it must really BE playing a warrior. I've never ever played one. I've always been a magic user of some sort. You already know that we've taken care to develop the magic system and the stats a bit more than most existing MMORPGs. I mean why does everyone have 6 and 7 physical stats and only 2 mental stats? And only ONE of the mental stats actually does anything. You're either a wisdom caster or an INT caster. WTF?

Well getting back on the subject, I had come to the same conclusion as you all have and we are making an attempt to add many different moves that not only LOOK pretty, but, more importantly, are useful. Like you'll be able to do a power move that really drains your stamina. If you're nearly dead and the monster is nearly dead, it will very likely be very worthwhile to hit that power move a couple of times and sacrifice some stamina for extra damage. You'll be exhausted afterwards and you'll need to rest, but I think that's a good alternative to death. Warriors will be able to learn wrestling-type skills also. They'll be able to hold opponents to keep them from running and, with skill, even keep them from attacking. At very high skill levels, warriors who have mastered wrestling will be able to choke oponents out and break bones.

Well, I hope it sounds decent to everyone, cause it wasn't as easy to balance it as it might sound. There's a very good chance that all of these extras will be in the final release, and at least most of them will definitely be in the final release. Fully developing the system is a bit of a ways off, but we'll post info as soon as we have it.

[Edited by Rolfe on 09-09-2000 at 12:45 AM]

[Uncle Dukey]

As much as I would've liked to have a twitch based combat system, I can see the disadvantages of it. So how is it working currently? Do you go into a sort of "combat mode" when you get close to a monster, then in a sort of turn based fashion choose the combat related moves you want to do? I'm a tad confused on the subject.

[Rolfe]

Well currently we're just shy of true alpha, so it's very basic. You just push the attack button and it basically starts generating random numbers and running them through the damage formulas. It's very inexciting.

If by currently you mean what do we currently have in mind, you'll push the attack button and it will pretty much take over automatically attacking I believe. Then if you want to implement a wrestling hold or attempt a beheading or something crazy, you likely get into position and go for your hotkeys.

[toray]

Woohoo.. my first thread is a success. On to the important bits:

I like the notion of wrestling moves being a possibility.

What I'd like to see is something along these lines:

I'm a melee fighter.. I can bash things with a stick. Great. But what if I want to be a swordsman. Well, there's this sword skill I can train. Now I can hack and slash with a variety of swords. But what if I want to be an elegant swordsman? I put a lot of points into agility, and not so many into strength. Well, I can specialize in the use of a rapier, and be able to cut and thrust. Now how do I defend myself? Shields are inelegant, so I don't want to train that skill... what about a main gauche? Perfect.. train two weapon style and specialize main gauche. Now, I'm an elegant "rapier and dagger" specialist, and my fighting style resembles the one below not at all. I don't wear heavy armor because I specialized parrying. I wear velvet and lace, and my combat is a deadly dance, entrancing to watch.

I'm a melee fighter. I can bash things with a stick. Bashing things is cool, but I wanna be a swordsman. Train Sword. Cool. Bashing.. still wanna bash.. specialize two-handed sword. Learn how to wear heavy armor to absorb punishment (can't dodge at all.. all my stats points went into strength). Now I am a tank. I hammer mightily at my foe, and they seek vainly for a chink in my armor. None of that sissy lace for me.. I am Crag Hack and I smash!


Get the idea? I'm after a wide variety of weapon styles that approach the notion of combat differently. Personally, I love rapier and dagger, so that's what I'd like to be able to play. So far, I've been unable to find that in a MMORPG - armor reduces damage, therefore one must be a tank to survive as a melee combatant.

[Lordosis]

Toray, if our system works in practice like it should according to how we have it designed, you'll be able to do just that. Armor class is going to work completely differently from any other game I've seen. In most games, the more armour you wear, the harder you are to hit. What kind of sense does that make?? The correct system is, the more armour you wear, the less damage you take when you ARE hit. Am I not right? Agility will determine how able you are to dodge blows, not armour. With 5 melee stats to balance and play with, players should have plenty of variety to choose from, even within the "melee" classes.

[toray]

If you can do that, you've got me signed up already :) A system that takes armor into account when dodging (dodging is harder in heavy armor), and has armor reduce damage from the blows is ideal.

Now please tell me you've got skills such as:
1) combat sense, which lets you know how much distance to keep, lets you take advantage of the difficult footing etc (in game terms, combat sense gives an overall benefit to both attack and defense).
2) parry (the ability to block a weapon with your own, preventing damage).
3) Shield use(try using a shield sometime - it requires skill to know where to put it)
4) weapon specialization (swords are a varied bunch. Just because I'm a master of the rapier doesn't mean I know jack about claymores, or even about broadswords).

I know that I'm asking for more complexity here than one generally looks for in a computer game, but pen and paper games have had this much complexity and more for years (not including Dungeons and Dummies, of course). I don't believe anything I've asked for here will increase the complexity of combat... it's the formulae used to generate the combat stats that will be complicated, being based on a large number of skills, but the combat will be the same as if I had an attack skill and a defense skill, and nothing else to worry about :)

I am now very much looking forward to seeing (And hopefully being able to comment on and perhaps influence :) the combat system.

Cheers,
Toray

[Lordosis]

Yep that really is built in to the current system as we speak. As for your other "wants":

1) done. Basically you have one big "melee" skill that you can't train at all. It is derived from all of your other combat skills. Right now it is literally the sum of all of your combat skills. We think it is about right as is, but it may get tweaked in beta.

2) done. Parrying will actually probably not be a separate skill that you can train by itself, but instead an ability that you get only once you are very skilled with a particular weapon. So if you are kick-ass with a short sword, don't expect to necessarily parry with a mace.

3) done. Shield is a skill unto itself. The higher your skill, the more effective you are at defending with a shield. You may even learn some offensive moves with the sheild if you are skilled enough.

4) done. We haven't defined the level of specialization yet. I don't think we planned to go as far as separating broad swords from bastard swords, etc. But all I can say for now is that a master with the rapier wouldn't automatically be a master with a longsword. Only if he practiced both. Don't get me wrong, he would still be pretty decent with the longsword just because of his "combat sense" (1). But he wouldn't be a master by any means.

Sounds like you have the same things in mind that we had when we designed our melee system :)

[toray]

On parries:
So if I'm to be a rapier and dagger sort, using a main gauche (parrying dagger) in my off-hand, would I not be parrying with the main gauche at low skill? Or would it be considered a shield for game mechanic purposes?

And assuming that I've got ungodly skill with rapier and main gauche both, how would the combat sequence work, once an attack has begun against me?

ie, blow coming, attempt main-gauche parry, oh shit, missed, this guy must be good, try frantic sword parry as I abort my riposte and get the body out of the way.

Or

blow coming. Sword parry? Fail. Shield/main-gauche? Fail. Dodge? Fail. I'm hit for X dmg in Y area of the body.

And since this is a skill based system rather than a level based, system, how is damage handled? Do my hit points increase over time, from a relatively low start to a very high endpoint? Do I start out with a decent amount of hit points and gain very slowly (more realism)? Will I know where I've been struck? Will there come a point before death where I'm feeling pretty disabled due to accumulated damage?


I'm very pleased with what I see so far... er, when's beta? :)

Thanks for your immediate and informative responses.

[Scrote]

QUOTE: (from Toray)Will there come a point before death where I'm feeling pretty disabled due to accumulated damage?

This - I think - is very important. Always hated how a dragon could have 450 arrows, 13 fireballs and 96 spears lodged in its head and still dish out as much damage as when it's fully healed. Hard to balance correctly, cuz it could make the game frustrating to play if that concept is taken too far. But I think a noticeable decay of one's skills should come into play when one is wounded, in most cases.

If I lived in Utah I would marry all of you btw. All of these ideas and responses are fantastic, I'm really looking forward to this.

S'right,
Scrote

[Edited by Scrote on 09-12-2000 at 06:48 PM]

[Lordosis]

Toray, yes it is correct to say that you woulnd't be parrying much until you built up your main gauche skill specifically (or the skill family that particular weapon belongs to with it's close relatives).

Things are still open to change, but as of now it's more like the second, less exciting scenario. Of course, it's really not of much interest since the only one that sees it in that much detail is the server's CPU. You, as the player, just find out what happened by the graphics and text that your computer shows you.

The hit point system will be a "play with in beta" type thing. As of now, expect somewhere in between realism (hit points don't really grow that much) and current RPGs (hit points grow exponentially).

Don't expect beta before early next year. We're aiming for no later than an April public beta, so we'll see. We'll probably just send e-mails to people from our message boards when we're ready to have them join our public beta, so do be sure your e-mail is current :)

[Lordosis]

Scrote: Hehe, I'm pretty sure bigamy is illegal nowadays, even in Utah. But even if it is still legal, I'm pretty sure homosexual bigamy is out. ... Uhh, and even if THAT is legal, I'm allready taken. ... Uhh, wait. Even if I WASN'T taken, I'm straight. ... Hmm. Even if I WASN'T straight, you're a scumbag :P

[Edited by Rich on 09-15-2000 at 11:22 PM]