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Thracyl
12-30-2000, 09:29 PM
Here is an ICQ conversation that I had with BelDragos last night while I was sending him a mIRC script. I've edited out non related conversation and fixed typos, but other than that it's exactly what we said. The conversation got cut short when our transfer completed and it became a lesson in mIRC basics. If BelDragos wishes to continue the debate here, I'm more than happy to oblige him. I'm sure he had more to say.

Thracyl:
I'm still going to push for a god of anti-magic to oppose the god of magic though. I like the idea of opposing dieties, but magic should be opposed by antimagic, not elemental. nothing against you personally, and I'm sure we'd also worship the Warrior goddess, but I want a real opposition to magic, not just trained defenses.
BelDragos:
Maybe you could convince Rolfe and staff to have it be a high level monk ability. Like the Quivering Palm ability.
Thracyl:
In RL I'm a huge dragon fan, one of the most potent forces of magic in the lore of a lot of places, but in game I like to take the hard road. It's much more difficult to make a character without any kind of magic.
Thracyl:
You remember the dwarves fromt he Dragonlance series?
BelDragos:
The Gully Dwarves?
Thracyl:
No, the followers of Reorx, they were not as affected by magic thru being taught and conditioned from a very young age that magic simply did not exist. The power of the mind is immense. I want to be able to do something like that. Faith in a god of anti magic strong enough would protect you from it simply by devout opposition and disbelief in its power.
BelDragos:
It would work against direct attacks but the indirect attacks would still affect you. It's hard to disbeleive a fireball when the forest fire caused by it boils you in your armor. If magic didn't exist, how do those people heal, make empowered items, or explain the Cataclysm that created the world and monsters you fight every day? Just a thought...
Thracyl:
The cataclysm was caused by a major natural disaster, not some guy wiggling his fingers. Magic items? PAH! Some people will believe everything. And those monsters were always there, created by the gods, they just chose not to be seen is all.
BelDragos:
Good answer. How about the power of the gods?
Thracyl:
Gods have power just like mortals breathe, it's not magic it's nature.
Thracyl:
I've played antimagic characters for a long time. i like to do it and it keeps the mages on their toes.
BelDragos:
So the mortals learned to manipulate this natural energy using their minds and their actions to channel it into the various effects. It involves the Chaos Theory
Thracyl:
That's not magic. That's discipline. like when a monk breaks a huge stone with his bare hands. Is that magic?
BelDragos:
If magic doesn't exist then your god has no reason to exist.
Thracyl:
If magic doesn't exist, then mages don't exist and I don't need a god, all I need is my discipline. Al I want to do is make others see that flash powder and quick fingers do not make a mage.
BelDragos:
What if they dont need flash powder and quick fingers to do their "tricks"

(I know I won't convince you but this is fun.)
Thracyl:
Anyone can coat a dagger in phosphorous, throw it at an opponent and call it a "magic missile". I colud punch you in the chest and rupture your heart, I could call it a "Touch of Death" spell, or tell it like it is. I concentrated my energy to all be released in a very confined area and do a specific task that I've taught myself to accomplish. Calling something magic doesn't make it so.
BelDragos:
How would you explain that ball of fire that lept from his empty hands and ignited that forest fire that you were trapped in? He concentrated all his energy to be released in a desired effect resulting in an exothermic rather than a kinetic effect.
Thracyl:
Concentrated kinetic energy is scientifically proven, fireballs are a handful of flour and suphur thrown through an ignition source, spectacular yes, but still just a trick for the gullible.

This is where the file transfer completed and we went into mIRC stuff. I hope this gives you a little insight into BelDragos' and my philosophies for the game.

Thanks for the cool conversation BelDragos, I look forward to more of the same.

UBIK
12-30-2000, 09:35 PM
nice convo, though i maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay not....er i may agree oh dammit! i dont remember what i was gonna say, grrr..... stupid c++ thought is blocking my "real thought, i'll get back to this later

Rend
12-30-2000, 10:08 PM
I really like the idea of having players less affected by magic though training. It would make a good monk disipline. But if magic dosn't exist then how could there be a god of magic or anti-magic. Seriously.

BelDragos
12-31-2000, 01:06 AM
That's a point that I brought up right before the conversation diverted.

Thracyl
12-31-2000, 01:08 PM
Belief in something is a very powerful thing. That's the whole point of religion. Christianity is based on a belief that doesn't even give its greatest reward until after you die. That's a pretty big leap of faith if you ask me. Simply because you believe in something does not make it so. If enough people believe in something it becomes accepted as fact.

I'm all for a religious system. I'd also like to see a system of power for gods based on the number of followers and the faith of their followers. I like the idea of 12 main "established" gods, and a number of other lesser gods that might rise in power as they gain followers. This way a very persuasive leader of a religion could basically create his or her own god.

As for gods of magic and antimagic, my ingame philosophy will depend on the actual system put in. A god of antimagic can work two ways. If I can affect the god of magic by teaching others the tricks used to make magic look real I'll do so. If magic is simply too powerful to do so and too many things are done to explain away, I'll take the other road. I'll put my faith in a god that can teach me to cancel the effects of magic through faith or other means. Either way I'll be in opposition to magic.

I just hope there will be more than one way to do certain things ingame. Things like healing, curing disease, and cancelling the effects of poison can all be done nonmagically and I hope that will be the case in the game. Otherwise it will be a serious handicap on non magic using players.

Rend
12-31-2000, 01:30 PM
I'm pretty sure you will be able to do all things magical by non-magical means (to an extent) The skill of alchamy(sp?) seams to be what your looking for.

Rolfe
12-31-2000, 01:44 PM
Did someone say this? Beldragos asked how the dwarves explained healing. The dwarves believe in clerics and the powers of the gods, they just didn't believe in MAGIC.

BelDragos
01-01-2001, 12:20 PM
Another good point.

Kymeri mac An Iolar
01-02-2001, 04:42 AM
Has anyone read the Serpent War Sagas? It has some very interesting theroies on Gods and magic. Theres a charator in it that says he believes that there is no magic, he just knows a few tricks :) He also says that what people worship as Gods are simply forces of nature that have taken on the aspects expected of them by there worshipers.

BelDragos
01-03-2001, 12:56 AM
I've devoured all the books Raymond E. Feist has written in the series. I'm waiting for the latest to be released.