Thief or no thief?

[Indigo]

Will there be thieves? If so what should they be able to do that makes it fun and special to be a thief. Sneak? Knockouts? pickpocketing change out of pockets?, break into the houses?, traps? ... I personally would love to play a thief or character who could actually move with stealth and sneek in and remove things but even I admit that you are gonna be able to feel me take your sword or shirt:) A good party needs a good thief:) Agree or disagree?

[Rend]

There isn't going to be any classes. but i'm sure there will be thief skills to learn (ie sneaking, pickpockets, pick locks etc.)

[Kintoun]

Skills that I would expect a player to be able to train in would be sneaking, stealing, and lockpicking.

For sneaking, this would be a skill that renders the user invisible to all PC's and NPC's depending on the players skill in sneaking vs the NPC or PC's rank. So a player with a very low sneaking skill would not be able to be undetected by a higher ranking PC or NPC. To be able to know if a PC or NPC can detect you this is where your radar would come into effect. Lets say that nearby (detectable at least) PC's are yellow and NPC's are red. If a PC or NPC can detect or see you while you are sneaking, then their corresponding 'dot' would flash. Otherwise if no 'dots' on the radar are flashing, then you can safely assuming that you are sneaking around undetected. Of course there are certain situations where a player would easily be able to see another player no matter the difference. For instance, if a low ranking player had a spell in effect that would allow him to see invisible 'things' which would include players sneaking. Then no matter the sneaking skill(unless maybe a VERY VERY high skill in sneaking where it could even sneak around magics), one would be able to sense the other player. On an added note, anything beyond speech, or walking would give away the player sneaking. So no attacking while invisible of course.

As for stealing, this would be useful for stealing from any and all NPC's as long as the NPC is not aggrivated (aggro'ed). So this would mean no stealing from other peoples kills while they are fighting a NPC. Of course upon being detected attempting to steal from a NPC you would take a faction hit. I would assume that upon inspecting a person, the theif would be able to see all the items a person is carrying. And then attempt to steal one of the items. Upon discovery, the NPC would immediatley begin attacking that player, unless that player had a very high positive faction with that NPC. I don't really see how PC stealing could be implemented as that would obviously be exploited no matter the odds of being able to steal. I would just make a crap character called KewlDewd and put all points into stealing, steal from any and every PC, then pass those items onto one of my other characters. I wouldn't even care if I was branded a theif, as noone would know the connection between that player, an my other.

As for lockpicking, that was discussed a tad in the "cities" thread I believe. Might want to go check out the ideas there.

[Su'ulMorda]

Lifting a purse could be fun, the system could restict it to some portion of the coin. the skill would pretty much be for smaller change, really, some fraction of the total carried. It would be more for effect than simply to gather piles of coin. Restricted with a repeat lifting limit and cap on total take, it could be fun... No on gets wiped out of coin and the can still shout "stop, thief" while the cutpures activates the "better part of valour" clause...

[Uuldiin]

Shouldnt BEGing be a skill, so the person can target a npc and start to beg for little ammount's of money?

[Slitherrr]

Well, as far as sneaking goes... One of the things about sneaking is that you don't know if anyone detects you sneaking around until someone reacts to your presence... Having NPC's shout "Hey, you scoundrel, come outta the shadows into where I can see ya!" would be a nice indication, but that doesn't necessarily have to happen. Oh, and as far as see-invisible goes, I don't see how that would help see someone sneaking necessarily. It's not like a sneaker is invisible, they're just hiding out in a place they can't be seen, and moving in a way that makes them unheard.

[Kintoun]

Well then consider see-invisble as a magic users third eye which they can sense neaby beings with then =P

[BelDragos]

That would be covered under the parameters of the spell.

There should be theives in the game and they will be skill driven like all the other "classes". What you are is determined by your skills.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Good point Bel,
There should be a set of theifish skill trees. Picking locks, sneaking, hiding, stealing, backstabing, disguise cheating,etc.

[Indigo]

Thats what Im talking about.. :) as for wizards spells picking up a good thief, I think that makes a wizard a bit invunerable dont you. a pick up magic spell shouldnt pick up a thief, but something like a trap might.. but then are you a good enough thief to see and get around those. Make life interesting:) I dont think a thief should have a backstab at frist.. perhaps a knockout but not a killing move unless they want to train and become assisians.. (cannot spell) .. I agree with the idea about a percentage of what the hit actually has. With a percentage of getting caught..based on how much you are trying to steal.. sneaking, shadow hiding, pick locks, see traps are all good skills for someone trying to get a look ahead in the dungeon .

[BelDragos]

Don't worry about the mages being to see you from a mile off. Their spells are only as good as their skills and powerlevels are.

[Kintoun]

asians Indigo? Heh heh j/k. I know you meant assassins =)

But the thing that you guys fail to realize is first of all, someone would have to raise up their spell skill in order to see a theif with a high level sneak. And that would require spending some hard earned exp, and most mages aren't going to want to do that. Second of all let me use a specific example from EQ. In EQ see invisible's duration was pretty short, and had to be recast quit often. And this would be quite a burden to have to keep this spell going 24/7. With both of those factors combined, very few mages will HAVE the spell see invisble, let alone have it in duration, let alone have a high enough skill to see a well practiced sneaking theif. All those combined cause for a pretty low probablility. Oh and in addition, in EQ the spell see-invisible (even tho it may sound useful), was almost never bought let alone used.

HOWEVER, if a mage was travelling through a part of the country side which is notorious for theives, he may have paid a high ranking mage with a high ranking see invis spell to cast this spell on him before he set off to travel. And IMHO that stays well within realism bounds. AND thats not to say that a theif wouldn't have a scroll/item with a charge of dispell on it so that he can use it on the oncoming mage, then go about looting and plundering undetected =). But then again, that would require the theif to think...

[Edited by Kintoun on 03-07-2001 at 03:58 AM]

[BelDragos]

Would the theif hida ability be concidered as "invisible"? It depends how they classify the hide skill(which requires cover to function, cant hide behind air molecules)and invisibility (you can hide behind air molecules).

[Kintoun]

I would expect a skilled theif to not only be able to use his surroundings, but maybe the roots of sneaking of theives was always based on a magical ability to blend in, kinda like a chameleon. Who is to say that theives weren't actually using a bit of magic mixed with actual awareness of his surroundings?

[Indigo]

Magical thieves sound scary too:) but if the skill of the thief and the skill of the caster are taken into account I suppose it would be fair in the long run.

[BelDragos]

If the thief in question learned a couple spells it would be fun. I liked the combination in D&D. The classes compliment themselves so well.

I don't think thieves will be inheritly magical because I have not heard anything about them having to spend Mana to power their abilities.

They could put some of their points in spells and learn some magic.

[Kintoun]

I don't know if anyone remembers, but Thracyl said how he wanted to show how all magic was a farse. That magic was just sparks thrown out from the hand, with aid from actual items. Similar to what magic is in the RL, just mirrors, and good special effects combined with the element of illusion. I was just proposing that theiving skills could be looked at in the same light (I'm not talking about getting rid of magic tho). It's not that theives actually know how to disappear naturally, but they have some innate magic ability which helps them to "blend". So I'm not asking that theives be given actual castable spells, I'm just describing what could the background to a theifs sneak skill be.

[BelDragos]

Having thieves with innate magical thief abilities would be unbalancing. They would have magical effects without having to spend Mana, nothing to limit the number of times they could use their abilities. The spellcasters are limited by how much Mana they can spend. If thief types want to use magic, they have to buy it like the rest of us. The thief abilities are skillbased like all the other skills are.

[Slitherrr]

... I don't think he's talking about new abilities, just implementation of the existing ones. Monk abilities might be considered "magical" by someone that doesn't know how to pull em off, and thief abilities would be pretty much the same way...

And if you want to work with real life, there are many that maintain that sneaking and hiding is merely disciplining your essence into non-conflict with the essence of others... The art of merely diminishing how visible you seem by focus of the mind and body.

[BelDragos]

I was talking about game mechanics.

[Kintoun]

Err Slitherrr was right tho, nobody here was talking about giving theifs magical spells, and I was referring to an explanation or implementation of the skills that theives already posess. I'm not saying I would like to hear that background for thief skills implemented, but was just feeding you guys some thought provoking ideas about why theives can seem to render themselves invisible.