Roleplaying evil in a MMORPG

[Saint Faucet]

Is it possible in this day and age to roleplay someone of an evil alignment online without being labeled a "grief player"?

Say I create my character and craft his background so that he's evil by fate. Maybe several years ago, a local noble was tempted by a chance opportunity and made a bid for power that destroyed my character's clan because of their political associations. My character escaped the country but was too young and/or weak to do anything about it. Now several years have past. The noble has since regretted his evil deeds and now seeks to atone for his mistake. Perhaps he has even set aside the clan's old land for an assortment of good civil structures (hospitals, orphanages, etc.). The only thing is that this noble has kept silent about his shameful act so the populace at large knows nothing other than his generosity. So the game starts up and my character has returned to the area with a huge chip on his shoulder. He's still consumed by his hate and rage. He feels that the noble must first see all of his loyal followers killed before my character finishes him off (thus making the noble feel what my character felt when his clan was destroyed). My character is not stupid enough to think he can waltz in and kill every single one of them by himself, so he waits for his opportunities to set himself on his opponents one-by-one before slaying them.

While that background would work wonders as a justification for a character's actions in a pencil & paper game, it doesn't work in a MMORPG. I could have this background posted somewhere, but in game it wouldn't matter. If my character enacts his vengence on one of the noble's followers, most likely it would appear like this to the casual observer:

"My character jumps out of the shadows and kills Player A. My character runs off."

Looks like random PK-ing to me. No one's going to investigate further into why the character is doing these assorted killings. They most likely won't notice that my character has only been slaying the noble's people and not random travelers. All they will see is a grief player; someone who should be killed-on-sight.

So I ask you, do player characters always have to be of a good or neutral alignment? Is there any way to truly roleplay an evil character in today's online games without being labeled as a grief-causing player?

[Morte]

Firstly, evil characters do not necesarily kill people. True, they are not as concerned with the moral and ethical concequences, and will therefore more easily turn to killing someone if it suits their own ends. The same way, people that make a living by killing people, need not be evil by definition. Bounty hunters and assassins sometimes use lethal force in the course of their work but that doesn't mean they are evil. Even bandits and pirates shouldn't be labelled as evil by default. Of course, most of these are not the most pleasant of people, but the fact that they kill people is not what makes someone evil. Soldiers in an army do the same thing, and they are not always very discriminant when encountering a village in enemy territory. What makes a character evil is his whole attitude to life, which by no means has to include killing people. There are a lot of different sorts of evil, for example slavery. I could go on about this a lot more, but I currently do not have the time to elaborate to much, so I'll keep it short.

The problem in the current MMORPG's is that of player killing and grief playing in the likes of Everquest. Given the size of this problem, and the attention it has received, someone who's behaviour coincides with PKers and Grief players is easily labelled as such, without people looking further than that. In a roleplaying environment, which for example EQ is not, acts like this would get more attention and the underlying motives would come to light, since murderers are not that common, especially on a large scale. For this to happen, an actual roleplaying environment is needed, which I hope and suspect Arcanity will be. If murder is as rare an occurence as it should be, I don't think it will be written off simply as grief playing, but the underlying motives would come out. The authorities of course cannot condone murder for any reason, but it would allow players to roleplay it as is should be possible to. For roleplaying purposes, criminals should be captured instead of killed if possible, to be judged by the authorities, and sentenced to either death, jail, or whatever punishment is deemed appropriate. Possible exceptions could be especially notorious and dangerous criminals, who would indeed be killed when found out, unless he/she surrendered.

[z_man93]

I think people with evil alignment is very important in creating a fun environment. And you question how we would deterimine systematic from random PKing. I don't think that it would be that difficult. If you went around PKing all the newbies and others that are weaker than you, then you are an obvious shallow idiot PKer. But if you only attack people of a certain guild or political party, I think it would be obvious that there is some reason for your PKing.

[Morte]

Unfortunately, not all PKers, would be that easily recognised, especially, given the fact that it probably will be more difficult to determine someone's strength and skills. And the PKer might be smart enough to create such apattern in his killings. I agree that some cases can be easily recognised as PKing, but I fear that unless PKing is virtually non-existant, meaning that everyone is a roleplayer, it will not be that easy.

[BelDragos]

We must determine a way to capture an opponant so they can be turned over to the police for the rewards that were offered. I don't like the way we would have to kill a jewel theif to bring them to justice.

There are a lot of us here that are smart enough to come up with a system that would work.

[z_man93]

Good points.

I think a smart PKer is fine. He can be roleplayed like a psycho serial killer. As opposed to a reckless PKer who just PK's anyone. Anyways, it's a difficult point to debate. The more systems that are in place to counter PKing, mean the more possibilities to get around them and cause really unpleasant situations.

I would like to see Bel's point come to life. It would be nice to be able to capture someone instead of having to kill them.

The only thing that I could think of is being able to knock someone unconscious rather than killing them. Maybe if you have less than 5% hp then you're unconscious, or something like that? Then you can be captured. And if you try to log-off you die an lose exp, $, or items and are still captured when you come back.

[BelDragos]

In D&D you go unconscious at 0 and when you reach -10 you are dead. You could knock someone unconscous and then capture them instead of going for the kill. It could also be a called shot option you could chose while fighting. Someone should allways have the option to do non-lethal dammage. When you try to subdue a dragon all damage counts, but after a while 75% of the HP returns. You have proven yourself superior because you have defeated him without killing him even though you were pulling your punches. It's the "using the flat of the sword" method.

We could use something like this for capturing. It could also work like that for duels and the arena battles.

There are other ways.

The weapon you use might have a secondary effect such as a whip disarming an opponant, a blackjack knocking an opponant out, Ect...

There are also the many spells that have the ability to subdue an opponant.

There is the Sleep, Paralyze, Symbol of Pain, Hold, Charm, Web, Entangle, and Hypnotic Pattern just to name a few. Teleport could end a battle by sending them directly to a jail cell.

We need to think of a system of capture that doesn't involve killing.

[Foxnix]

I like the idea of the non lethal assualt as this would be a good way for training in some circumstances. Just like the sword trainers would do in medival times with the young fledgling trainees. They would spare with them to increase there skills and to teach them some of the finer points of sword play (or whatever weapon / skill).

This would be another great way to improve your early skills if you had a tutor who you could fight in a non lethal way that would gain the lower 10% or some other arbritary figure of your offensive and defensive skills.

Imagine the RP potential of having a squire as well!

[BelDragos]

Yes those would be other ideas where Subdual dammage would come into play.

[z_man93]

Yes I like it. Because if you have a disagreement with someone you do not have to PK them to show your supremacy. If there are penalties for dying, I would rather knock someone unconscious than kill them.

The problem with this, is that it seems like you would need to be able to control how much damage you do. IF you take off 200hp per hit, and your opponent is still conscious with 50hp, how do you not kill them?

Maybe at 0 hp you are unconscious, and then if you recieve another blow you then die? or something of that nature?

[BelDragos]

Just make a rule that declaired subdual dammage cannot kill because they will regain 75% of the HP they lost. The rest is just bruises that will heal normally. They never really went below because you were pulling your punches.

[z_man93]

This reminds me of something I was thinking of last night. Regarding character stat development. Considering sparing and more precisely conditioning in real life. A characters AC should be affected by damage they take and then recover from. And Bel's subdual damage and sparing would play a big part in this. People would actually be encouraged to train. By training you not only increase skill but you are bruised and tattered, and when you heal you become tougher (AC decreases)just like in the real world.

[Foxnix]

Wow this sounds excellent I would like to spend about half my time in cities if this system was in place once I had gotton myself nicely trained as I could then forge a whole breed of warriors in my own image and help them through the early parts of their development and into the big world of adventuring!

Also I don't think that once you get past that certain limit of your skill that you can really perceptable increase your skills by simply training I think to reach true mastership of any of your skills then training to begin with would be ideal but after that you need to tax yourself and face death to truely become great.

whats the point in being a master sword swinger if you have never seen blood or the dismembered corpses of your friends and foes layed before you on the field of battle?

[Dyson]

Actually, people do it all the time... most people who use weapons in this day and age (martial artists, stuntmen, hobbists) have never killed anybody, despite the fact that they can achieve a high level of proficiency.

Though I do agree there should be a cap on "trainable skills," I don't think it has to be terribly low. Even if someone could duel with subdual damage to a high level in a city doesn't necessarily mean they will; after a while, they're going to want to take on a monster. And if not, so what? Legends are full of wandering swordspeople who challenge people on the road to friendly duals to better themselves, or foppish nobles who've never left the city walls.

[z_man93]

I think you both have good points. I don't think that you need to be part of mortal combat to refine skill. I think skills can be mastered quite well in the safety of a city. However battle experience does help when it comes to more battles. In any environment, even an MMORPG, one does not know what to expect in battle until you have experienced it first hand. All the skill in the world might not be enough to get you past the shock of having an ally killed, but an experienced warrior must continue on.

[Kintoun]

If something was implemented so that no creature, player, or NPC could be killed, without a "killing blow" then this would illuminate obvious PK'ers, and also be great for people to duel without consequences, or train with each other. For instance lets say that you attack someone with melee or spells until they are knocked unconscious. From this point you have then option of executing a "killing blow" and killing the person. Maybe the game asks you, "so and so has been knocked uncinscious, kill him?" Or there could be a preset button in which you can walk up to someone/thing unconscious and hit the button to do the killing blow. Maybe this could even be accompanied by a lavish death sequence in which there can be differnt buttons for different deaths (impale, decapitate, slash combo, death by a particular spell). This would look EXTREMELY COOL! Of course to use these you would need to target someone/thing unconscious first. Now if a NPC was knocked unconscious then the PC/Group would get exp and loot (since they effectively debilitated the NPC) but no death related loot like hides, internal parts, etc. After a set amount of time, the NPC would wake up and regain all their HP's (or most at least, otherwise you could pound the same NPC agagin and again) and continue on their way. But if a NPC is knocked unconscious (say twice in 2 min) then I would have to say that it dies no matter what. Otherwise people will keep knocking something unconscious and getting the exp for this each time and camp the unconscious NPC (thats why I proposed a full heal when the NPC wakes up). Of course tho the loot can only be taken once, unless you didn't take the loot off the NPC.

But this would separate the people who PK for fun, or RP PvP for a reason. PK'ers would just kill you and steal your loot. Whereas PvP'ers would only knock you unconscious and make fun of you. Why wouldn't PvP'ers kill someone? Alls that is needed is for Arcanity to release the fact that killing is ONLY done by PK'ers and NOT RP'ers.

This idea would also help the Karma system. If you and your friends want to duel, but don't wanna run all the way to a safe duelling area like a arena, then you can knock each other unconscious w/out killing. This wouldn't effect your Karma as you havn't killed anyone. Altho people might get the wrong idea watching you attack each other, but once they see there is no killing blow, then they know that these 2 guys are either RP'ing or just playing around, or training. However if a bystander sees a killing blow, they know that they can now step in a kill the murderer.

A big problem in EQ, AC was that it is impossible to have a fight out in the open with a friend w/out other ppl jumping in to stop or help the fight! This was very annoying.

ALSO this idea fits nicely for the person who doesn't believe in KILLING an animal for exp. Lets say you want to hunt and gain exp in the nearby forrest. Now who would want you to go around KILLING all the animals in sight!? Your killing off precious wildlife. At least this way you can just knock them out.

ALSO this idea works well with the no static spawns. This method of not killing an animal but gaining the exp and loot and moving on, works well for scarcity of NPC's. Since NPC's won't just pop out of anywhere.

ALSO this idea works well with NPC AI. The newbie grounds will most likely consist of animals. To an animal it knows no difference between someone being dead and unconscious. So I would say that an animal NPC would walk away after rendering it's victim unconscious. But more intelligent NPC's would want to finish you off. This would be a way to implement the newbie's "safe levels" without explictly saying "Newbies get less death penalty in the early levels." More realistic here.

ALSO this idea works well with an RP situation. For instance for a master to train his pupil, the pupil will have to use his skills and try to overcome the master. As I thought of before, on my ideas of players training players thread, this would be the determining factor of a pupil learning from his master, by using a certain skill/spell while in "training mode".

ALSO this idea works well in arena and any duel based environment. Obviously in a gentlemans duel, or event, realistically noone should be killed. Well knock em out! Would be great to see the audience shouting "KILL HIM!" or "SAVE HIM!" while the victor stands over the unconscious loser.

ALSO I'm done =)

[BelDragos]

There should be an ortion when you are fighting a group of goblins you dont have to take the time to deliver the killing blow in combat.

[Kintoun]

Hmm actually I would rather see a group knock out 10 goblins, the proceed to go around dealing the killing blows to the fallen 10 goblins. Cause you have to remember that the unconscious can stay knocked out for quite some time before waking up. Since some of the higher level monsters and groups take longer to kill, then the amount of time the animal stays knocked out should depend on its level. The higher it's level the longer it stays unconscious.

This is much like a real war scene that you would see from Braveheart. Where the remaining soldiers go around and make sure that the enemy is definatley dead.

Heh thanks for giving me another reason this should be implemented ^_^

[BelDragos]

The term of unconsciousness should be determined so we have an idea if we have enough time to finish off the rest before they wake up.

[Foxnix]

To make things is easier though wouldn't it be possible, seeing as we will be using the auto attack system that it turns the attacking off when the victim ... Err I mean loser falls unconcious? Then to administer the killing blow you would just re-attack that same enemy?

Perhaps you could have some form of observation appear to warn you of an impending awakening of the fallen Goblins? Something like..."The Goblin priest begins to groan on the floor and you notice his paler improving".

Or something like that?

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

I too agree that a combat system which we can knock our opponents unconscious it a great idea. Such a system leaves so much more room for roleplaying. As a player who in not into PvP, but has certainly been attacked by PKers I would love the oppertunity to knock them unconscious and have them wake up in the town jail with me jeering at them from the other side of the bars would be so much more satisfing than just killing them.

As to Saint Faucets question about an evil persona. We have talked in the past of people being able to take over someones postion of power, ie setting yourself up as the Duke or King of a government by taking out the current Duke. I would say that somewhere along the line you would have to take out some of his followers to get to him.

If this could be done in a dueling system where he chooses to deliver a killing blow and as it was a duel would not make him a criminal per se. Since you need to accept a duel and therefore the consquences that go with it. That would eliminate it as a random PK, but would leave open the fact of the person not accepting the duel. Then the person would have to choose to pk the person instead and take his chances.

[Foxnix]

Not neccesarily but I see your point.

It would be kinda cool to knock the old duke out and then inprison him in an iron mask below the castle.. Hmm that sounds kinda familiar though!

[Gaehh]

I think there is only a very fine line between an evil roleplayer and a PKer/griefer. Sometimes it's not possible to tell the difference. Ofcourse sometimes you can definitely spot a griefer by his actions...

Maybe setting up complex and not static faction-tables could help in defining 'who is killing on purpose' and who is just on a killing spree. Everything you do should have an inflict on your factions.
There should be factions shifts depending on how wealthy you are (which social class), on your beliefs, on how you completed some quests (multi faceted quests with different solution possibilities), which mobs you mostly hunt, which players you have attacked/killed, where you spend most of your time and so on.

In my opinion the consequences have to be drastic for killing other players without reasons (wars, factions), I agree with the statements in the FAQs concerning player killing.

A roleplayer playing his evil char would face these consequences (and probably even enjoy having to deal with them), since they are a part of his characters life and world, while griefers would be driven away from the game, they don't want to suffer under consequences of their random PKing and harassing.

[Foxnix]

Thats an excellent idea but wouldn't it take bags of CPU time / HDD space to implement?

It would be cool to have every action you do have a re-action with which your interactions change between you and NPCs / PCs

I think that there could and should be a way to simulate this but it is probably to complex to put accurately into the game?

[Morte]

In theory it is possible, but it does indeed require a lot of CPU cycles, and it is very complex and takes a very long time to build with current technologies. As the industry advances, it will become possible to build such complex structures as this into games, but I think it will still be a while before it will be seen in games.

[Nadger]

its pretty much impossible, otehr games have been searching for an answer too. especially Dawn.

my view on it is treat it like real life. you kill and get caught, you have a trial and are jailed or are just plain jailed if there is more then enough evidence to convict you.

but my main view on murderers in mmorpgs, is...why? why do they have to be a murderer? especially greifers, they are trying to turn a mmorpg into a FPS. one common thing iv noticed amongst pkers is that they pk because its "fun" or because they like to make other peoples lives miserable.

Though a game needs bad guys, to many makes the game totally suck....like what happened to UO.

But if your a real true role-player, you will always role-play your kills. Where as a greifer, will slip up and forget to role-play it, reveiling he is a greifer. And the "god" can do what they wish with him.

i dont have any problem with pvp, i just have a slight problem with pk and a major problem with greif pk. Sometimes you just fight someone to proove a point or to get revenge. and for this, i like the way Dawn has handled it.

There is an actual "Fatal Blow" key to hit when you want to kill someone. So if you beat them down they would fall uncontious and lay there until they gain contiousness again, or you execute a fatal blow. and kill them.

so its more similar to a gang beating then a murder.

anyway just my 2 cents.

[Talka]

Bah, want to role-play evil. Here's a scenario (doesn't have to do with Arcanity).

A good Centaur (GC) and an Evil Minotaur (EM) meet.

EM: Well, well, well, if it isn't a were-ponie!
GC: Minotaur, leave me be.
EM: Oooo, he talks! The pony talks! Bahaha!
GC: Let me through now, or I shall se force.
EM: Bah, force? What force ye got, were-ponie?! Gonna SNIFF me ta death? Eh?
GC: This is my last warning.
EM: Ha! Bring it on, were-pony, I'm waiting!

Not the best scnerio, so here's another:

An Evil Diviner (Future-seer [ED]) and a Good Cleric that is dieing, and many are in room:

Others: Somebody help him!
ED: Leave him be.
Others" He - he's dieing!
ED: I fore-see trouble from this soul. He knows not he brings death to us all. Not bad, but death will overcome me too.
GC: He...lp me... please..
Others: Let us through, Seer, we need not your currpot divinations!
ED: Oh... curropt? Far from it. I'm the only Diviner who sees the truth. This man will bring death to us all, let him suffer and die.
Others: He has done nothing wrong! Let us through!
ED: Curse of all of you to the deepest layer of the Abyss! This man will be this planet's doom. I do not inted to have him be the cause of my death. A blown up planet is no good to rule, now is it? Not all of you! LEave now, let the filthy Cleric suffer and die, watch him scream with pain. And know that in his death, you live longer. Not much longer, but longer. Now, leave! Or be damned to the Abyss, all of ye!

Just a few examples of how one can play evil. Evil does not have to be kiling, now does it? Or blocking doors, or the like. There are gret ways to eol-play Evil, open your mind a bit,

--TAlka

[Kintoun]

Awesome Talka, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. Also we have an upcoming evil-aligned guild. If your planning on RP'ing evil I bet you would be a worthy addition...

We need more good RP'ers since we will make the base of MMORPG's, and set examples for others.

[Talka]

I'm not sre if I'm going to role-play evil. I'm thinking of being neutral (You know, the guys obsessed with balance and pendilums swinging in balance?), but I might play evil. I really like my sig, but I don't know if it is more evil, or more neutral.

I don't plan on joining a guild until the game is playable, mainly because I promptly forget about the guild and I join another. Then 2 guilds hate me.

Anyway, that's for the compliment! =)

--Talka

[BelDragos]

Actually you are compairing two extremes balancing each other so your quote would be neutral.

In the Guild that I am starting for all spell casters I will encourage multiple memberships so you can learn more Knowledge. Let me know if you are interested.

[Kintoun]

bump (Wrentia's favorite line http://members.chello.nl/~deleeuw3/smile.gif)

Rolfe was talking about liking the idea of the "killing blow" recently. Well heres the info for those of you who wish to help elaborate/expand/support.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Yup, I still think that its a great idea. Its easily implented. What ever type of combat system we end up having this could be implemented. Have it be a toggle in the options menu. When your setting up the game you can choose:

Good: Always ask before Killing Blow on NPC and Players
Neurtral: Always ask before Killing Blow on Players only.
Chaotic: Never ask. Kill Em all!

Easily done and players can choose their level of violent tendacies. :)

Besides which I really do want the option of being able to knock a player unconscious and drag them off to Jail. I want players who get caught PKing to end up in Jail. The more times caught the longer the sentance. 1st 1 day Real time and each succeding offence increase the sentance.

I want Bounty Hunters to be given higher rewards if they choose to bring them in Alive instead of Dead.

[Dyson]

Kymeri, I really, really like your "Killing Blow Query" system.

Nice, easy way to set up methods of ethics. Maybe there could be a "never kill, no query menu" option for those of us who really like jail, and have a tendancy to drop characters in quick succession (if you're under attack by a mob of low-level bandits, paladins aren't going to be want to deal with checking "No, don't kill" "No, don't kill" "No, don't kill" every five seconds).

I really like the idea of dragging folks off to jail as well, but I think I disagree on the "1 day of real-time" punishment (they may be obnoxious PKs, but they are paying just like the rest of us), though I'd fully favor some Public Execution or (stat and credibility loss), maybe some torture (stat loss, temporary branding as "Criminal" or "L0z3R, if they prefer:) ), full confiscation of all lootable items...

For serial killers, I'd like to see bounty hunters or platoons of guards (PC and NPC) despatched to loot & raze their houses (or attack an evil guildhall), if applicable.

Anyway, back to my original statement- Kymeri, your Killing Blow Query idea rocks. Onward with the "neutral," woo!

[z_man93]

Aye, this is good stuff. I know that its been discussed in the past, I just don't remember all of what was said. I think we were talking about not having to select a no kill option, that it would be standard. And then once unconscious, there would be another sort of hp limit that when exhausted would kill the character. Something to the effect of: 0hp would cause unconsciousness and -10hp would be death. I think thats what was discussed. I like this, because as stated it might be cumbersome to always have to select a no kill option.

[Kintoun]

Good idea Kymeri.. but I would prefer the default setting to always ask if the killing blow should be instated. Also your idea doesn't work well with my "finishing move" idea. Unless a random "finishing move" was used if they wanted to never be asked to kill or not.

I was gonna post and say to check the previous page and say the location of my post... but I thought that I might as well just repost it here =)

"If something was implemented so that no creature, player, or NPC could be killed, without a "killing blow" then this would illuminate obvious PK'ers, and also be great for people to duel without consequences, or train with each other. For instance lets say that you attack someone with melee or spells until they are knocked unconscious. From this point you have then option of executing a "killing blow" and killing the person. Maybe the game asks you, "so and so has been knocked uncinscious, kill him?" Or there could be a preset button in which you can walk up to someone/thing unconscious and hit the button to do the killing blow. Maybe this could even be accompanied by a lavish death sequence in which there can be differnt buttons for different deaths (impale, decapitate, slash combo, death by a particular spell). This would look EXTREMELY COOL! Of course to use these you would need to target someone/thing unconscious first. Now if a NPC was knocked unconscious then the PC/Group would get exp and loot (since they effectively debilitated the NPC) but no death related loot like hides, internal parts, etc. After a set amount of time, the NPC would wake up and regain all their HP's (or most at least, otherwise you could pound the same NPC agagin and again) and continue on their way. But if a NPC is knocked unconscious (say twice in 2 min) then I would have to say that it dies no matter what. Otherwise people will keep knocking something unconscious and getting the exp for this each time and camp the unconscious NPC (thats why I proposed a full heal when the NPC wakes up). Of course tho the loot can only be taken once, unless you didn't take the loot off the NPC.

But this would separate the people who PK for fun, or RP PvP for a reason. PK'ers would just kill you and steal your loot. Whereas PvP'ers would only knock you unconscious and make fun of you. Why wouldn't PvP'ers kill someone? Alls that is needed is for Arcanity to release the fact that killing is ONLY done by PK'ers and NOT RP'ers.

This idea would also help the Karma system. If you and your friends want to duel, but don't wanna run all the way to a safe duelling area like a arena, then you can knock each other unconscious w/out killing. This wouldn't effect your Karma as you havn't killed anyone. Altho people might get the wrong idea watching you attack each other, but once they see there is no killing blow, then they know that these 2 guys are either RP'ing or just playing around, or training. However if a bystander sees a killing blow, they know that they can now step in a kill the murderer.

A big problem in EQ, AC was that it is impossible to have a fight out in the open with a friend w/out other ppl jumping in to stop or help the fight! This was very annoying.

ALSO this idea fits nicely for the person who doesn't believe in KILLING an animal for exp. Lets say you want to hunt and gain exp in the nearby forrest. Now who would want you to go around KILLING all the animals in sight!? Your killing off precious wildlife. At least this way you can just knock them out.

ALSO this idea works well with the no static spawns. This method of not killing an animal but gaining the exp and loot and moving on, works well for scarcity of NPC's. Since NPC's won't just pop out of anywhere.

ALSO this idea works well with NPC AI. The newbie grounds will most likely consist of animals. To an animal it knows no difference between someone being dead and unconscious. So I would say that an animal NPC would walk away after rendering it's victim unconscious. But more intelligent NPC's would want to finish you off. This would be a way to implement the newbie's "safe levels" without explictly saying "Newbies get less death penalty in the early levels." More realistic here.

ALSO this idea works well with an RP situation. For instance for a master to train his pupil, the pupil will have to use his skills and try to overcome the master. As I thought of before, on my ideas of players training players thread, this would be the determining factor of a pupil learning from his master, by using a certain skill/spell while in "training mode".

ALSO this idea works well in arena and any duel based environment. Obviously in a gentlemans duel, or event, realistically noone should be killed. Well knock em out! Would be great to see the audience shouting "KILL HIM!" or "SAVE HIM!" while the victor stands over the unconscious loser.

ALSO I'm done =)"

[Edited by Kintoun on 06-11-2001 at 05:46 PM]

[BelDragos]

The only bad point I can see is that it would be too late to save someone who is being attacked if we had to wait until we see a killing blow.

Otherwise most of the rest sounds like it might work.

[Kintoun]

I was referring to revenge. You can wait to see if the person is killed or not. If they are killed then you know the other player is a PK'er, and so can help to exact the victim's revenge.. if they are knocked unconscious then you know they were just RP'ing or playing and can go about your way.

Also I wanna emphasize the RP aspect of using this for teachers training students which was a recent retouched topic. Just think of the RP possibilities...

[Indigo]

I like the idea of killing blow too.. I wonder though how much loot you would get from a knocked out deer:) I do not like the idea of knocking out npc much. What fun is there in beating the same creature over and over again, even with a limit on how many times per hour you could hit up the same creature. Perhaps that could be random roll based on how much damage you did the creature.. it might die even if you dont use your killing blow. And if it did survive it should be stronger for it.

For all the pvp parts I do like the idea alot.. especially the not so safe arena's .. what a blood bath.