Treatment of health (hit points)

[toray]

Since you've stated that you don't feel true realism in combat in the game is a good thing (ie, a single sword thrust ending the matter), I've a few suggestions. First, let me say that from a gamer point of view, I agree with you. As a real-world swordsman (hey, we all have weird hobbies), here's what I'd do:

Make your health system two-tiered. Endurance (or Stamina) represents your vigour in combat, while health indicates your life force.

Attacking and defending reduce your stamina at a very slow rate. Being hit in an armored portion of the body reduces stamina further (representing bruising, impact, forced shortness of breath, etc etc). The quality of the armor determines how much damage is stamina-related, and how much gets through to actually decrease your life force (hit points). Once your stamina is exhausted, you take significantly more hit point loss from attacks (signifying repeated blows to the same area (which have a seriously accumulative effect in real combat), blows that make it through chinks in the armor, the inability of the exhausted warrior to raise his shield arm high enough to protect the mouth, and so on. Further, light armor can only absorb so much damage.. it will allow a greater portion of the attack to reduce hit points.

Heavier armor protects more, but reduces your chance of dodging, and marginally increases the stamina burn. So a person with high dodge and parrying skills can wear light armor, and still manage to keep damage in the stamina-burn range, unless they miss the parry/dodge, at which point their poorer armor means they take a significantly larger hit point loss than someone in gothic plate would take. Gothic plate is pretty much the extreme... little chance of dodging a skilled opponent (but shield parry is still very possible), but blows that do land on the armor will do nothing but stamina damage until stamina is exhausted.

Of course, you'll have to have an encumbrance system, to prevent everyone from running around in gothic plate and spellcasting, for instance.. and encumbrance can't be entirely tied to strength, either.. gothic plate isn't that heavy when properly fitted, but it's still damned awkward in many cases.

Now, magic, well magic can suck people's stamina, or directly affect their health (I'm a strong proponent of armor affecting spell damage - if I cast a spell (hail of stones) at someone in gothic plate, I expect them to laugh it off (stamina dmg only). But if I lightning bolt them, they better scream as their balls get welded to their cup). If I were to cast a spell that boiled someone from the inside out, armor is ignored, and the damage is applied directly to hit points.

But what about mages in robes, you ask? Assuming you have merlin here in robes (are robes buffable as in AC? Your call) that offer very little protection against a sword blow, that mage will take hit point damage right away. Good thing there's defensive magic...

As you may recall my dream character will be Ack-ish in that he'll be hard to hit (dodges and parries, baby!), but if you do land a blow on him, his lack of heavy armor may well mean one or two shots and dead...

So the attack mechanism would work as follows:

Axe swings at me.
Hit roll? Succeeds (ie, his attack vs my dodge)
Shield Parry? Fail
Axe hits armor.
Armor reduces N points of damage (ie, the N points of dmg are done as Stamina dmg). Anything over and above N is applied to my hit points. Good enough armor (ie, gothic plate) reduces the stam damage further. Some stamina loss will occur; how much depends on how well the armor spreads the impact.

I think this method is well-balanced across the board, and offers great gameplay as well as realism.

Is the concept detailed enough? Can anyone see a flaw with it that will affect gameplay?

[Dyson]

I think this is a very well-thought-out system for armor. I'd be inclined to make the limitations on spells quite harsh, so only wizards who were experienced with both armor and magic could cast effectively; high-level spells or spells that required material components might fail outright if you were in anything above chain mail, due to the posturing and accessibility difficulties. I also like the stamina drain for wearing armor and casting magic, so you don't have "tank mages" running around throwing fireballs. Personally, I'd like to see stamina drain implemented for all magic skills; that way, wizards will have to ration their spells carefully or risk exaustion.

[Scrote]

Originally posted by toray
But if I lightning bolt them, they better scream as their balls get welded to their cup

Aw man, that's some visual.

I like your ideas a LOT. I've never considered damage affecting something other than "hit points" (health, lifeforce, whatever) and I think this is a great way to add some realism into the game as well as the sensation that you really are in the middle of a FIGHT. As long as you don't see knights pausing to munch on an apple midway through a fight to regain some stamina.

I see no flaws in the system. I think it'd require a lot of experimenting - you could find people exploiting the perfect "sweet spot" of light armor and high parry/dodge, or something like that, but that's something that just needs to be tinkered with.

S'right,
Scrote

[toray]

I would hope that one wouldn't be able to eat an apple whilst in "combat mode". And exiting combat mode while being attacked shouldn't be possible. Wanna run away? Fine, that should be possible in combat mode. But eating, drinking potions, using a healing kit etc.. no way can you do that with sword and shield in hand. A mage? Sure, they're always digging for spell components anyway... let them suck potions or eat apples. If a meleer wants to try that, they should be struck by every blow thrown at them (ie, no dodge or parries), and you can't eat or drink anything in a close-faced helm...

I freely admit to sucking back potions in AC whilst wearing a heaume, and to leaving combat mode to heal whilst monsters miss me due to my obscene melee defense. Doesn't mean I like it, but the combat system there is designed to allow it. I would prefer a combat system that was designed to NOT allow it.

[Scrote]

What is your melee defense in AC? I'm new to it, and I screwed up with the char I rolled up. But I can't be bothered doing all the tedious shit again now that he's 11th level, so I'm wondering how badly I screwed up. It's untrained right now, and it's at 50 or so. I plan on training it in 4 levels.

S'right,
Scrote

[toray]

I don't want to discuss AC on an Arcanity board :) My melee defense in AC is 325ish.

I'm kinda surprised I didn't see a dev response on this thread... ah well.

I'm still waffling over the starting hit point level and rate of increase.. I feel that games which start you out at really low hit points, and allow you to grow them to really high levels are incredibly unrealistic.

It would make more sense to me to start people out with a relatively high hit point total, and make it far more expensive to raise than other skills, so it remains relatively static.. assuming that weapons don't grow too much in power, ie, that skill is more important than equipment in combat, then this model should work...

[Ruadin]

Nice thread toray... the system is well thought out and its actually along the lines of a system I've suggested on a couple of other MMOG boards. The difference would be that I broke it down into one or more additional areas. My biggest problem with alot of modern MMOG is the fact that armor is no more than a set of numbers applied to AC (and possibly even some enhancements to skill or magic). In that context, armor plays no active role whatsoever, and ineffect is no different than having a mage cast a super strong defensive spell. Idealy, in a combat situation I would expect any of a number of things to happen. Take situation where you have two armored warriors duking it out.

Warrior A swings at Warrior B:
---------------------------------------------------------
MISSED ATTACK:
- warrior A misses (skill related)
** OR **
- warrior A misses (warrior B dodged)
i) assess fatigue factor (from toray's post)
** OR **
- warrior A misses (warrior B parried)
i) assess fatigue factor

------------------------------------------------
GLANCING ATTACK:
- warrior A barely hits (deflected by shield)
i) assess fatigue factor
ii) assess shield damage (if any)
* affected by SHIELD-BLOCK skill of warrior B
** OR **
- warrior A barely hits (deflected by armor)
i) assess fatigue factor
ii) assess armor damage
* affected by DODGE skill of warrior B
** OR **
- warrior A barely hits (exposed body part)
i) assess fatigue factor
ii) assess hit point deduction
-------------------------------------------------
SOLID HIT:
- warrior A solidly hits (blocked by shield)
i) assess fatigue factor
ii) assess shield damage (if any)
* affected by SHIELD-BLOCK skill of warrior B
* weapon quality vs armor quality check
(poor quality weapons could be damaged)
** OR **
- warrior A solidly hits (blocked by armor)
i) assess fatigue factor
ii) assess armor damage
iii) assess carry through damage (from toray's post)
* affected by quality of armor
* weapon quality vs armor quality check
** OR **
- warrior A solidly hits (exposed area)
i) assess fatigue factor
ii) assess hit point deduction
* wound severity modifier
(a deep wound should result in a constant stamina drain
at a rate depending on the severity of the wound)
-------------------------------------------------
At this point we would have a potentially fatal wound, and at this point NPCs can be made to cease their attack depending on their race and the reason behind this encounter.
-------------------------------------------------

To me the system above represents a pretty realistic combat model. In addition, such a combat model would create a constant demand for blacksmiths - to repair damaged armor and weapons. Armor should not be what determines whether you get hit or not... that's a function of dodge and parry skills. Armor merely exists to absorb damage and protect you from fatal blows.

Fatal blows is another aspect of combat I'd like to see. If you enter fight wearing nothing but cloth armor or a robe (with no defensive magic intact), you risk being delt a fatal blow much easier than someone in full metal plate.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on combat.

[Dyson]

I heartily applaud Ruadin's suggested combat system; it would help to increase realism in combat, make armor repair and quality a larger issue (so blacksmiths have something to do), and seems easily compatible with the fatigue and skill systems already posted. Kudos!

[Wrentia]

Along with realistic combat and armor decay, weapon decay must be present as well.

Armor decay should be fixable with most problems being dents and twists allowing the armor to cover less area. Smiths should be able to hammer out these problems. Rarer would be cracks and splits. These can be fixed to as good as new as well, but at higher cost. Finnally there should be a catostophic failure, as in a large puncture due to a thrust or heavy cleave or the piece of armor breaks into pieces. Also fixable, but the armor is less effective after the fix.

Weapon decay should be along the same lines. Normal decay can be handled by a smith resharpening the weapon while cracks and splits have to be handled in a forge, and complete breaks would result in a reforging and a lesser weapon.

-Wrentia

[Paladin]

Good combination of uses for health, fatigue, and armor. Adds a lot of depth to the combat system. This type of system would keep people from becoming combat monsters with just one outstanding stat and some decent armor. Good job.

[toray]

I have always disliked the idea of wear and tear on armor and weapons.. there's such a thing as too much realism, and for me, that comes at the point where things get tedious. I don't pay for tedium :) Downtime is bad, whether it be for making arrows, buying spell components, or repairing armor.

That said, assuming that skills are more important than items, and that I could just throw out my worn sword and armor, and replace them with new ones, fine and dandy... similarly, if I can hand my sword and armor to a blacksmith, along with some cash, and get them repaired instantly, fine and dandy... just don't make me sit around and wait for something when I could be out enjoying the game..

Cheers

[Paladin]

Maybe the craftsman doing the repair could give out loaners until the repairs are done. Kinda like putting your truck in the shop and having to drive around in a lime green Pacer until it's repaired. :P

[Wrentia]

In my repair examples, you never HAVE to repair anything....It will last much longer and potentially forever if you do have them repaired.

Lets say you are fighting and you notice that your dull weapon has developed a crack... You can continue fighting with it (it will only be very slightly less effective) until you are ready to head back to town. Once back in town you can have it repaired. However, the longer you fight with it, the chance for it cracking again or breaking becomes higher. Armor or Weapon breaking should be quite rare but possible thourgh complete lack of care.

examples....

A sharp weapon can become dull after 20 hours of play
A dull weapon can develop cracks after 40 hours of play
A cracked weapon can break at random sometime after 50 hours

a sharp weapon has no attack/damage penalty
a dull weapon has -1 damage
a cracked weapon is -1 attack/-2 damage
a broken weapon is useless

-Wrentia

PS a small amount of skill points into smithing and a sharpening stone, and you can always have a sharp weapon.

Also loot weapons can be found in differing condiitons, some requiring repair to be fully effective.

[Paladin]

What about a skill set to allow players to repair items, given the right eqp and material of course. This would have the standard skill progression: higher skill = better chance to repair. Players could then set themselves up as craftsmen to cater to the growing monster smashing population.

I apologize if this is redundant. I have a lot of reading to catch up on here.

Alternative:
Of course you could always become proficient in clubs: club (branch) breaks, go to woods and pick out new club. Much simpler:)

[Slitherrr]

I'm liking this system proposed... No MUD or MMORPG I know of has tried a combat system like that, and it sounds like it would work really well, and work realistically. As far as repairing armor/weapons goes, I think that'd work, as long as it doesn't add to too much downtime. Maybe even be able to pick up sharpening stones along the side of the road, especially around a river or something, and make the repair weapons/armor skills taught by many people so they can get those few points needed for sharpening/low-upkeep purposes.

[Wrentia]

is to add a touch of realism with out making poeple think we are reaching in and pulling their teeth. Decay for weapons and armor should happen, but at a much slower than realistic rate. Fixing a dull weapon or small dents in armor should be basic skills anyone can learn. But, Critical hits have a chance of cracking or breaking the armor they hit if the armor is not in tip top shape. The chance should be quite low, but still there.


For some reason, one thing that annoys me in EQ is killing something with the graphic of a full suit of armor, and when looting it I get a bracer or a leather shirt etc...What I would like to see is an item like "Ruined Suit of Chain" which is totally useless as armor, but a smithing shop will buy it as raw stock to melt down. It would be very heavy to carry around, and not worth tons. So lets say I kill a Bandit somewhere wearing chain. The gauntlets survive the battle. I should loot Chain Gauntlets and Ruined Suit of Chain. The gaunts are useable and sell for a decent price. The ruined suit will sell for a poor price. Any "ruined" item dropped on the ground should probably decay fast...Again, this is just one of those annoying to me little details. Not important, but something I'd like to see...:)

-Wrentia

PS. PC Smiths might also be able to buy "ruined" items to melt down to make new items of their own....cheaper than buying raw ore from a vendor.

[Rolfe]

But apparently, so have you all. Funnily enough (funnily actually is a real word funnily enough) the system we have had in mind is very similar to Toray's post that started this thread off. There is one exception that appears to be pretty major. I'll move on to weapon upkeep, but let me start with this combat system I speak of. We were in the same mindset as Ruadin in that Armor Class doesn't make sense in most games. D&D is still one of the best RPGs ever, but having to roll a higher number based on someone's AC in order to hit them never made sense to me. What DID make sense was that armor is subtractive of damage, meaning that if I have full plate armor on and you hit me with a whip, you just aren't going to damage me no matter how hard you try. I don't even have to respond to your attack if I don't want to at that point. If you're hitting me with a 2 handed battle hammer though, I might think about asking you to stop. So in our system, your AC actually represents a base number, let's call it BASE. If plate armor gives you a BASE of 8, and a whip does 3 damage plus a strength bonus, you won't have much to worry about if you're in plate getting hit with a whip. The whip would have to do MORE damage than your BASE to actually damage you. The 2-handed battle hammer would likely do closer to 12 damage plus a strength bonus. Now you're going to take damage.

Notice that this system is very similar to Toray's system.
I understand that this system ignores some details though (namely the stamina part), but I believe that the details we leave out are neglegable somewhat and the system is much more realistic than any other RPG I've seen. I don't like the idea of a rapier lowering your stamina. It doesn't click with me. I see what you mean when you say that it is representative of other things, but it still sticks in my head that a rapier is damaging my stamina. So, although our system is pretty much parallel to yours in every other sense, we don't have the stamina damaging feature.

That may at first glance seem unfair to people that like rapiers. Here's what I think is going to end up happening, and it will really be more realistic in my opinion, since it doesn't seem realistic to me for a guy with a rapier to effectively fight someone in full plate with a broadsword. Let me know if you agree or disagree:

In real life, Knights in full plate armor were pretty much invincible to other soldiers for hundreds of years until the Swiss/Scottish Pike was invented. In Arcanity, your rapier isn't going to do much against a knight in full plate armor. If you prefer fast, light combat, you're likely going to need a light sword or a mace or something in addition to your rapier/main gauche combination. You'll want to draw that sword if you find yourself in combat with someone in full plate.

I'm not saying there's no room for improvement in our system. It's just important that the system makes sense and is fun. One thing that seems like it could really add to the system is a way for the person who prefers the fast and light combo to have an advantage over a goth plate muscle head when fighting a magic user. Here's the one way I've thought of for that to be possible so far. It seems to me that a magic user could run much faster than the guy in full plate. So he'd just run a little and blast and run and blast. He'd fly the guy in plate like a kite. So what we're planning on is different running speeds. The dynamics of the different running speeds isn't too important here and it's pretty self explanitory how they'd be figured. Basically, heavier armor = slower running speed. Your strength and the encumberance of the armor would have to come into play somehow too. It would be realistic for the guy with the rapier to catch up with the wizard since wizards aren't likely going to be all that athletic. So that gives the rapier gentleman an edge on the wizard that the plate goon doesn't have.

One other thing that should sort of happen automatically is that wizard will be pretty nimble with no armor on compared to the warrior in full plate. So even if the warrior DOES manage to catch the wizard, it's likely that the wizard will be able to easily avoid the warriors slow, powerful swings.

I'm exhausted now. What a workout on my fingers. There's too many of you. ha ha. I'm severely outnumbered here. Let me know what you think (in 3 words or less please). ha ha ha. Just kidding

[Rolfe]

Oh, forgot to mention. We thought about weapon decay, but we all thought it would be kind of tedious like Toray said. I'd rather not have it in. If you all would prefer a system like Wrentia proposes, that's fine too I suppose.

[Dyson]

I like the system; it sounds good and realistic. I've see too many people in UO sparring with daggers while wearing full plate. The idea of a "base" to overcome clicks with me.
I don't care about rapiers, but stamina drain for Armor itself is being left in, right? I'd rather not see guys in platemail jogging around for extended periods of time... :)

[Wrentia]

us girls get to jog around in full plate all we want!

Wrentia

[Wrentia]

BTW, in the combat system, if we have a NPC that aggro's but can't hit me, can the NPC be smart enough to either:

1. Stop trying to hit me.
2. Go get some of its friends to help hit me.

I hate having a little bugger expending its energy trying to hit me when it can't, and its anoying to turn around and swat the little fly....however if it ran off and gathered 10 of its buddies to come peck on my armor, I might start to notice. :)

-Wrentia

[Ruadin]

Rolfe,

Your system is by far one of the most realistic I've across in MMOG - however I'd like to briefly argue the stamina issue. The reason I think stamina should play an issue, is like toray pointed out in the original post, its unrealistic to be swinging, running, dodging, etc. without getting tired. As it stands in current game systems, when you enter a fight, the only downtime experienced is the time required to heal. If a cleric is on-hand, then there's hardly any delay and characters are capable of running marathons while taking on armies at a time without tiring.
A system that considers stamina and ties it in with effectiveness in combat, is going to make it unlikely - especially for those guys (or girls Wrentia! :) in full plate - to turn into the proverbial Energizer bunny.

Anyhow, this is merely my perspective regarding this issue. Still, regardless of whether or not stamina gets considered in the end, I think this is a system that would be viewed favorably by all.

[Rolfe]

Hmmm... yes, you guys are right. I suppose I'd never really thought about it, but stamina should most definitely be a factor. I didn't like the idea of taking stamina damage based on the damage your armor didn't absorb, or the idea of a rapier damaging your stamina at all. But it DOES make sense that if you're in full plate running a marathon, your stamina should drain faster than if you're naked running the same marathon. Are you picturing this marathon? I suppose as your physical stamina went down, it should effect your strength and agility realistically, and thus your ability to hit very hard and dodge very fast. That seems like it would make great sense. I think we should definitely give that a try, eh?

One other thing that I forgot to respond to was the commonality that when you start an RPG, you have 6 HP and at level 50 you have 1,000,000,000,000. So like if a level 50 is tied down and a level 1 starts hitting him with a broadsword, he can't even hit the level 50 for one thing because the level 50 guys "Armor Class" is too high (or too low)and the level one guy can't roll a THAC0 that high. But even if the level 50 guy took all his armor off, the level 1 guy could hit him all day long and it would take forever to kill him. JUST HIT HIM IN THE NECK FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. We've thought of this and we had come to the same conclusion that you guys seem to have in that it's just not right. There will be some adjustment I believe. Maybe at level 1 you'll have 20 HP and at level 50 you'll have 80 or 100. That's stretching reality enough I think. Also, I know that in some RPGs, weapons do more damage when you get to higher levels. In Arcanity, weapons will do a set amount of damage PLUS a STR bonus. So a level 50 won't be able to do 10 times more damage than a level 1 with the same weapon. The level 50 guy will likely hit for full damage more often though.

[Ruadin]

Hey Rolfe,

I'm glad you addressed the "number of hit points" issue because that's something which I agree is ridiculously misrepresented in RPGs (online or otherwise). The mere prospect that you become virtually untouchable at the higher levels is an obscene distortion of reality. I can't recall if I mentioned it on an earlier post, but I had mentioned the need for critical-damage attacks. In the scenario you presented earlier, where a level 50 person is tied up and being attacked by a level 1 person - it should be much easier to deal a fatal blow to the tied down individual. Fatal does not necessarily translate to 'instant-death', however it should cause twice or triple the regular damage nonetheless due to the simple fact that the 50th level person is unable to avoid the blow. If the carry-over damage is high enough, it could result in a fatal wound. The addition of critical-damage attacks emphasizes the need for armor to those who would be full-time dodge/parry types. This would create a balance where you could choose agility and speed in favor of better protection, yet run a higher risk of being critically wounded. Or you may choose the opposite.

If it is decided that critical-damage would be added, it could be something that grows incrementally with the level of the character as their knowledge of human anatomy advances. Obviously this would not be a beginner's skill, but something that could be potentially aquired. This would also present avenues for would-be assassins who which to pursue this type of skill. I imagine, a limitation would have to be placed on the degree to which non-combat/assassin types can learn this sort of skill.

[toray]

Don't forget that Asheron's Call has stamina loss in place right now.. it functions well, except that it isn't reduced by taking damage.. that applies only to health...

Now, as to the rapier vs guy in plate suit issue... the full suit of plate developed late in the middle ages (sheet metal isn't easy to do), was incredibly expensive (All metal armor was), and was basically invulnerable to impact damage (swords of the day did concussive damage more than cutting damage to anyone in even leather armor). Arrows, too, bounced off. Pikes, too, bounced off, but had more concussive force than single-handed weapons. The method of killing an armored knight was to knock him off his horse (or kill the horse), and kill him with a punch-dagger (a short, wide-bladed dagger that was strong enough to punch through the weak spots in the suit of armor). How much realism do you want in armor, folks? Full plate should cost the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars, and should make you nigh invulnerable to anything except magic (a lightning sword would leave some nasty burns tho) if you want complete realism. 95% of the intelligent races in the game should be wearing leather armor, because even chain was damned expensive and took months to complete a single suit.

Oh, sorry, back to rapiers.. a rapier should have no chance in hell at killing someone in gothic plate, except that there's one small problem with gothic plate... it HAS to leave the armpits, the inside of the elbows, and the backs of the knees exposed. Not a big deal when you're facing someone with a large concussive weapon, but with a rapier, I'll kill an armored knight every time, and easily (of course, I'm left handed, and can strike at the exposed armpit of a right-handed opponent without having to worry about the shield). That said, rapiers weren't introduced until after gunpowder had rendered armor of any kind obsolete. The rapier is not a military weapon, it's a civilian weapon, intended for dueling for the most part, against unarmored foes. It can split the links of chain readily enough, and is accurate enough to find the holes in armor very easily, but it wasn't really called upon to do those things historically. It truly was a gentleman's weapon. (For those who are still with me, I apologize for my zeal on this issue.. I spent 7 years in university studying early modern French history, with a focus on the the duel as a socio-political trigger).

So what I'm trying to say, is that in a realistic fight, a rapier is a perfectly functional weapon against full plate, far more effective than a broadsword or an axe. In terms of game mechanics, I can see reducing its effectiveness for game balance reasons, however.

[Rolfe]

I have a hard time accepting what you're advocating here. What you said regarding knights in full plate being nearly invincible to the weapons of the day... that part we both agree on. But, aside from your main point, you said that knights were even invincible to the pike. Isn't it fairly well know historical fact that the Swiss made a stand without any heavy armor (which they couldn't afford) by lining up in a dense row with pikes against an army of plated knights?

The other thing you said, your main point, is that a rapier is not only completely effective against full plate, but it's MORE effective than a broad sword. So my question is, do you believe that it's realistic for a man armed only with a rapier and leather armor to battle a man in full plate with a broad sword effectively? And if you said yes, my next question would be, why were the knights in full plate considered so nearly invincible? Why didn't rulers just invest in hundreds of rapiers instead of expensive suites of armor? Why didn't they just send a hundred guys with rapiers in their underwear against a hundred knights in full plate?

[toray]

You missed the part where I said that the rapier was a civilian weapon, AND THAT IT WAS NOT POPULARIZED UNTIL AFTER GUNPOWDER HAD RENDERED PLATE ARMOR OBSOLETE.

The rapier came into active use in Italy in 1535ish, as the weapon of choice for a nobleman to carry about the city with him. It spread rapidly across Europe, and by 1547 was carried by noblemen universally. The heyday of Gothic plate was more than 100 years earlier. And yes, a pike hedge is a wonderful defensive formation.. you can hold virtually anyone back with a wall of pikes, but you can't be aggressive with the unit.

One on one, a man with a rapier and buckler (or rapier and dagger for that matter) in street clothes should defeat a man with a shield and broadsword in full plate. Many on many, armor rules the field. To fight in massed combat with a rapier is simply impractical, as the weapon is used for both attack and defense, and one cannot avoid being struck in massed combat - one MUST rely on armor to absorb damage. The exception there is your hedge of pike - a highly trained hedge of pike is extremely difficult to penentrate without throwing people onto the heads, dragging them down with their dead and dying bodies so that the next wave can pass the pikeheads (and where are you going to find the suicidal volunteers for that task?)... at that point, the hedge is destroyed. A pikeman alone vs a swordsman (or axeman) with a shield is a dead man. Pikemen NEED to work together to be effective. Pikemen working from behind a shield wall are also devastatingly effective (think back to the Roman legions with their shield walls and spears).

Your problem is that you have a fantasy world in which plate armor, broadswords, pikes, rapiers, axes, and the like, are all present. That's entirely unrealistic historically, and presents problems. How you solve them is up to you. You will wind up sacrificing accuracy for gameplay value no matter what route you take.

Essentially, one on one, skill wins. Weapons and armor have little to no effect on the outcome. If I'm clearly better than you, I don't care what you wear, I'm gonna kill you. In larger melees, armor becomes far far more important, as blows will be landed on you, no matter how skillful you are. Numbers truly are overwhelming. Epic stories of one man standing against dozens of foes are just that.. stories.

Have I answered your question?

[Cynycal]

i personally think that you should only know the condition that you're in and not you're specific hit points

[Thirty]

Well, rapier versus armored apponent sorta actually happened. It was Japanese versus Spanish sailors. The Spanish would thrust with their rapiers, the Japanese would dodge back and chop down on the wrist of the Spaniard. So, the Japanese were superior hand to hand (Spanish won anyway due to cannons sweeping the Japanese decks).
Same sort of thing could be done by a knight versus a rapier guy here, although the knights armor and weapon is a bit heavier than the Japanese, and thus a bit slower. Using a bastard or two handed sword, say, for its long reach. I imagine the rapeir guy would have to be quite good at dodging and attacking fast to succeed, since his light rapier would likely break if he tried to parry. If hes good enough he could eventually tire the knight out, but he had better be good. Of course, here, the knight might even get and learn to use a katana or other fast long weapon, which would make the rapier guy have real trouble.
Against broadsword and shield,, if they're both right handed, the rapier guy wont see much of a target behind the shield, since the only joints he can get at are fairly well covered. The rapier guy also need to realise the the knight has two weapons, his broadsword, AND his shield. He can bash with the face, or hit with edges or corners. Once again the rapier guy will have to do a lot of dodging about since he may not be able to parry the broadsword, not to mention the shield. If hes got a buckler he may have a slightly easier time, since it will stop a broadsword, and possibly tie up the shield breifly to. Anytime the rapier guy gets close enough to thrust, he will be in range of the broadsword, and possibly the shield, so he would have to time his attacks just right.
Now if the rapier guy is left handed, he may have it slightly easier (assuming the knight is right handed), as he will have a bit of a shot at the right armpit. However, to get that close he may have to come within range of both sword and shield, he would have to use his parrying dagger or buckler to hold that off, time it so he doesnt get hit by the broadsword, and hit the armpit, a rather small target if the knights armor is good. The knight may see what hes up to, and use his broadsword sorta like a rapier, with thrusts and short chops, which will allow him to keep his armpit a lot less exposed.
Personally, this dosent look like an easy fight for mr rapier, if the knight is good. I expect the rapier might win eventually if he can threaten the knight often enough to tire him out without getting hit. The repier has the option of running away however, the knight dosent really have this option.
BTW, by the time real good full plate was around, braodswords werent used much, since they couldnt penetrate the plate very well, and shields werent used much either since they werent needed. Knights often resorted to two handed weapons, bastard swords, two handed swords, short polarmes, that sort, to penetrate, although if your large and strong you might use a one handed mace or axe or heavy sword like a falchion.

[Thirty]

Speaking of which, there is one thing Iv never seen in any game, Ranges of two handed weapons. A two handed weapon is longer than a one handed one, so can reach farthur. Its drowback is you must both attack and defend with it, since you have no shield. One way to get around this is stand between and a bit behind two friends with shields, now you dont have to defend much, and can chop down on enemies in front (polarms are just the right length for this). I wonder if it is possible to do this here?
For that matter, what about using the shield face to bash, or the edges or corners to hit?


[Edited by Thirty on 10-15-2000 at 05:20 AM]

[toray]

Now we're at the realism vs gameplay aspect of combat. Realism won't work in a game - fights are over too quickly in realistic combat. I'll treat that topic in a new message thread. For now, I'll just address a couple of Thirty's points:

I must disagree that the Spanish vs the Japanese battles in any way was representative of the theoretical battle between a rapier man and a gothic-plate wearing knight. Japanese armor is far far lighter than gothic plate, and the Japanese weapons were similarly lighter (the weapons of someone in gothic plate were meant to dmg people in gothic plate - go figure). So the Japanese were far more mobile. Katana vs rapier is very similar to rapier vs rapier, save that the katana is a two-handed style, and involves rather more cutting than a rapier (more reminiscent of the cut and thrust swords that preceded the rapier by a century or so). Further the cut to the wrist was taught in every western school (read Saviolo, DiGrassi, Sainct Didier, or even Silver), so that was nothing new. Musashi himself came up with the two-sword method of sword fighting he immortalized, after watching two Portugese soldiers play at Rapier and dagger while in a Japanese port.

One final thought on the rapier vs armored knight issue. The armored knight doesn't present any threat with his sword, having to bring it back before a cut can be initiated. The Katana was held in a weapon forward stance, threatening the rapierman. In the case of either the katana or the rapier facing the armored knight, the knight loses at the point he draws his weapon back to strike.

But we're way the hell off-topic now. Discussions of realistic combat have no place in a game forum.

[Thirty]

Well, for THIS game, discussions of realistic combat might actually mean something, thats why Im discussing it. This game might be rather better at simulating realistic combat than most others, if it can manage to at least have the same outcome as one might expect in real combat, even if some gameplay elements must be thrown in (like taking more wounds to actually kill soneone) then thats something unique. I for one would like to actually see a game with at least some semblance of real combat and combat skills and armor effects. Heck, if it gets even semi close Im there.
And yeah, Japanese armor is lighter, optimized to stop slashing and arrows, and its quite good at that. If the rapier guys can manage to keep his hands on, he should be able to penatrate Japanese mail joints quite easily (it has big holes in it, good against slashes but no protection at all from peircing). Mr gothic plate is another matter, the mail is heavier, the question is, is it too strong for a rapier to penatrate, or will the rapier guy need a stouter blade? There was a thing called an Estoc, a sort of thick rapier, just for this purpose, stronger but a bit heavier and slower (also has no edge at all). This estoc existed during the whole plate period, so the plate guy might know how to fight agaisnt them, or even have one himself.
It should be noted that a slashing broadsword isnt a great weapon against plate, most knights used something with a stout point, a longsword or often a bastard sword (or an estoc), often used two handed (style a bit similat to a katana one, if slower). So, Mr knight need not nessissarily haul back to swing, at least not far with the two handed job against light armor. So Mr knigth can be a threat to Mr rapier whenever Mr rapier gets in closer to strike. Also, all swords, even plate guys ones, are razor sharp, plate guys did not have dull smashing swords, heavier yes but not dull (thats a common misconception about medieval weapons).
The big question is, is the rapier stout enough to penatrate mail? If it isnt, Mr rapier has to switch to a somewhat slower but otherwise similar estoc. It might be just slow enough that he cant hit the very small joints of Mr plate (if its a really good suit, very small indeed, if its a more common cheaper one larger) fast enough to avoid getting hit himself, either by a short chop or jab, or by a shield. If thats true, it once again comes down to Mr rapier (using an estoc) tiring out Mr plate with repeated feints till Mr plate is just slow enough to beat.
I wonder if it could be sorta tested? Weight down some dude to simulate armor, weight his saber a bit, see if Mr rapier can hit an armpit in a fight.

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

There was a rapier blade besides the Estoc made for piercing heavier armor. When people think of a rapier blade most envision a Epee which is thin and flexable. There is the Estoc you mention which is shorter, heavier and not flexable at all. But there is also the Shlager blade which is longer than the Estoc, still somewhat flexable, but used right will puncture plate.

[toray]

The schlager blade used in the SCA is a reproduction of a period rapier. The name comes from the weapon used by German university students who got thrills from cutting each other's cheeks in a dueling-derivative.

There was no schlager-style rapier historically - there was only the rapier, which the schlager is intended to reproduce.

Yes, a properly wielded rapier can punch through plate if it hits it properly. The odds of that happening in an actual combat situation, against a moving opponent? Next to nil... the plate has to be immobile, or advancing into the force of the rapier's thrust such that contact is achieved at a 90 degree angle, to prevent slippage. More likely, the blade would slide, catch on something, and break. The proper use for a rapier is to insert it into the squishy bits not protected by armor.

Take care,
Toray
(in the SCA, Thoré de Bethune, OWS)
(for those who care, the OWS is the order of the white scarf, an award given to people good with rapiers. Really damned good, in my case :)

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Ah, I did not know that it was SCA only, of course that is where I have seen it.