Leeching/Twinking/Character Sharing

[Talka]

I was just playing Nexus, one of my favorite online games. The following three things ticked me off...

1) Leeching: Having a character nowhere near your level make you more powerful by assisting you in killing things. The "Leeche" doesn't do much. Meanwhile, others are working hard, trying to get more powerful.

2) Twinking: Having a character have weapons and armor that they simply shouldn't have. Somebody much, much, more powerful gave it to them. Why should poeple who know people IRL get such an advantage?!

3) Character Sharing: 3 people, 1 character. Takes shifts. Unfair, not to mention that 2 people aren't paying what they should be paying, while the rest of us are.

So when I was playing Nexus, and these 3 things got me ticked off. I work for 5 hours, get 1 level. Somebody else works for 30 minutes, gets 5 levels, then his friends advance the character even farther. Sheesh..

So, say what you think about these, if they're good/bad, should be allowed/banned. How to ban them, etc...

--Talka

[UBIK]

all i have to say to the such stupidity of people is "Baka" and i devote the "baka song" to them!

Those things make me mad, except the leaching, its ok but still should be banned since it takes away fun for others.

[vilk]

I agree with Talka on the possible abuses inherent in MMORPGs, but before, maybe, bringing this thread to the developer interaction board, I have to ask one thing...

Baka?

[UBIK]

it means Stupid, or idiot, ect...

[SylvanHistorian]

Baka, Aho, Manuke... there are a lot.Will you teach me baka song?:)

As for 2) Almost all do that in Diablo 2 now and as a result you see unnaturally powerful players who are at level 1. I don't like it.
As for 3) How much do you have to pay as monthly fee for Nexus? If very expensive($30 or more), I might agree with character sharing(with my brother).

[Indigo]

do you have a more powerful friend to hunt with.. then you are leaching,,.... someone gives you stuff then you are twinking.. and acct sharing..poor things to have to share an account. If it were rl and my grandfather left me his sword and armor would i be twinking? You guys are still thinking in terms of levels.. Hopefully there wont be leaching cause there is no levels to gain and being helped by higher powers wont happen much unless they are willing to give their own time and skill points and then wouldnt that make them a teacher?

[Kintoun]

Hmm these are VERY hot topics and controversial ones too as they are prevalent in almost all online character advancement games. To be honest it really depends on the situation of the game on if it should be accpetable or not. For the case of Arcanity? hmm...

Leeching:
I think it should not be allowed. Arcanity isn't going to be the type of game which you will make a dozen characters like Diablo2 and want to get the back up to par with the rest of your chars ASAP. This is especially due to the fact that you can dynamically change "classes" at any time in Arcanity. So if you feel your character is going in the "wrong direction" then you can change over with minimal loss. In other words you won't need to remake a new character. So because most people will be concentrating on one chacarter there should be harsh requirments on leeching. You would need to group with someone very close to your lev otherwise the exp will be almost non-existent.

Twinking:
I feel it can be a little more leinent, but still have some restrictions on it. After all if your a merchant and hit it rich quick, you SHOULD be able to go out and buy some very nice equipment and be able to use it. However 90% of the people will use this as "twinking". But this is really not all the bad IMO. It promotes player interaction, and forces players to make friends. If you have the right "hookup" then you should be able to use some nice stuff. If you feel your lacking in equipment then consider joining a guild, or making a lot of friends. Of course this can't get too out of hand... so as I stated there needs to be a bit of resatrictions.

Character Sharing:
This won't be a problem in Arcanity, and I don't see how it is in another game. Why would you want to let someone else play your character? They could ruin a lot of stuff. I would never trust my character which I spent months builiding to another person. What of they get me banned, or ruin my reputation, or die and lose all my exp and items!? The only situation I can think of is with Sylvan's and I think that is very acceptable.

ARRGGG ok this is killing me! The baka song.... who sang it? It was from an anime..? Damn how can 'I' not remember this!? Grr too much anime info colliding in mah head I guess =/ AH HA! I thought I was right! It's Akane Tendo's song from Ranma 1/2. Heh heh.

[Talka]

Some people have said that the leeching and tweeking is OK, because you simply hvae a powerful friend. The reason I'm against it is because its a friend IRL. People have a gigantic advantage just because their friend is powerful.

With twinking, I propose that all weapons have a a certain strength needed. ONce you equip it, no strength is deducted or anything, you just can equip it. This would limit tweeking, but still leave 'gifts' OK.

With character sharing, the problem is when three people IRL get together, say they want the most powerful guy, and only have so-and-so amounts of money. This gives an unfair davantage over other players. In Nexus, the game I play now, character sharing got os overhand it got scary. Nexon, the company that makes Nexus, had to start banning people who's character got signed on from a different state in less then 2 minutes.

--Talka

[Dyson]

Personally, I think these are problems that are essentially spawned by flaws in the game itself, and the way to prevent them is to be pro-active, rather than banning people after the fact.

1. Leeching. Hop on over to the "Teaching other Players" thread; the system we've got going there has this in the bag. Bring the Nexus players over to Arcanity- they'll fit into it perfectly. :)

2. Twinking. This is essentially a problem with the game structure; ie, powerful monsters drop Swords +5 and other such Nonsense. If the Devs for Arcanity stick to their guns on Powerful items being rare (and for the most part, available for players to make albeit with a very expensive cost and hard-to-find components), this shouldn't be a problem at all. After all, is your Grand Poo-bah Paladin going to just hand his little brother's newbie char the Holy Sword of Wrathful Fun (of which only 4 exist) that he recieved for single-handledly saving the Temple of Whizzit? Or is Great Geomancer Gabe going to drop his Stone of Mighty Head-Crushing (which he spent a couple months searching, fighting, and trading spell formulae to get the components to make) on a casual friend's newly-made fighter/thief?
My guess would be "no" (and if it does happen, you can bet that every ambitious young Theif will be after the newbie with a special "Blue Staff of Stealing," rather than pony up 100k for one of the 5 others or search out a PC theif/mage to make a new one). If, however, we do get into a situation where monsters are just "spawning" magic items, yes- we're going to have a "Twinking Problemo" big-time. I personally think this is one of the best incentives for KEEPING MAGIC RARE (or at least difficult to come by). Woo!

3. Character Sharing: I'm with Kintoun on this one. In UO, my main character was a Wizard who was really good at talking to the Dead (Spirit Speaking, the skill was called). I played him often, and wouldn't have let anyone else get "behind the wheel" if they'd asked (unless they paid well ;p ). However, I had a friend who didn't have internet access, or (at the time) a computer that could have run UO even if he did. So I let him keep a Fighter in one of the spare character slots, and he occasionally played when he came over (about once a week; he'd play for two or three hours, maybe). He certainly wasn't a full-time player, even if he had been able to access UO, and I certainly didn't feel like this was "cheating" in any way, shape or form. On a personal note, I want to meet the three teenagers who are well organized and cooperate well-enough that they not only split their play-time equally, but manage to get anywhere in the game world as well. Personally, I might go a couple days without logging on and then HAVE to play all night Sat. I can't see myself saying "Oh, it's Josh's turn tonight. I guess I'll just watch TV, happy in knowing my $10 is well-spent paying for his cheap ass to play on my account." Pthhhb.
I just don't see it.

Edit- okay, I just saw Talka's on Nexus sharing (must have been written while I was typing madly). I'm really amazed that it became such of a problem... I guess I'm just lazy. :) The "banning when you sign on from a different state in under two minutes" policy sounds good, though.

(practice that Pyromancy!)

[Edited by Dyson on 06-11-2001 at 12:02 PM]

[Cynycal]

well the way i see it, if you made how many magical items there were in the world extremely limited by making the process of creating them extremely difficult, and laborious, thus increasing the value of magical items, you wouldnt' have much of a problem with twinking, i mean they might be your friend but are they going to give the only magical longsword they've fround in a long time to you...probably not, as for them just being friends IRL...hmm perhaps Roleplaying between those two characters should be heavily encouraged, you can't really put a stop to the twinking but you can encourage them to atleast roleplay first....and i'll assure you i wont be giving any of my items out unless my character is friends with the other character (and i mean damned good friends)

Cynycal

[Dyson]

We're on the same wavelength exactly, Cynycal. I like my IRL friends and all, but...
"That's my longsword +2 of Flaming Meatballs. Took me a week to get all the Special Sauce, and then I had to sell my horse just to pay the blacksmith." You don't just give stuff like that away. :)

[Cynycal]

exactly

Cynycal

[vilk]

HAHAHHAHAHHAHA. Gawd, Dyson, you're good. +2 Longsword of FLAMING MEATBALLS. SPECIAL SAUCE! Man. It's so true.

[Jouk]

Leeching and twinking only seem to be the problem of level based "ItemQuest" games (like EQ).

In UO you can take your bog-standard armor and weapons and head towards the dungeon with your friend that has been playing for a year longer than you have. He'll help you stay alive and maybe resurrects you if you die. You of course share the loot.

In UO that's called fun...

In EQ that's called twinking and leeching...

(Also true that in EQ you *need* UberItems to survive and compete, in UO you'll do just fine with a shop bought or GM smithed sword...)


Personally, I love UO's idea of "no levels" and think levels are better suited to p&p RPGs.


Like Yoda would've said; "Experience leads to Levels, Levels lead to Twinking, Twinking leads to Suffering young padiwan..." :p

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

1) Leeching- While I admit I have helped friends gain skill or level to a certain point, this was only to help them get close to my level to make it more enjoyable for both of us to play together. We are talking about a mentoring system (wouldn't that be considered leeching?) The grouping system in Arcanity is supposed to function so all levels can group together and gain good experience.

2) Twinking- Twinking is not something I believe in, I rarely gave charactors equipment from other charactors. If your given something by someone of higher skill, I do not think of that as twinking, its someone putting out a helping hand to someone of lower skill. Frankly this was a medievally period concept. A squire was mentored by a knight and not only was he taught skills by his night, but occassional rewarded with money or armor to help him on his way. It was common for friends and family to combine and by him the chain, spurs, belt, and sword which was to become his when knighted.



3) Shareing- My brother and I have shared many accounts and I don't see a problem with this, it lets some people who perhaps would not play defray the cost by sharing with a sibling and friend. Although we rarily shared charactors this did happen when one of us became bored with the game and we basically took over the charactor with the other only playing it occassionaly. I don't see a problem with charactor sharing. The only ones that would seem to be bothered by this are ones worried about powergamers and believe me they'll find a way to raise their skills quickly without sharing a charactor to do it.

[drugarth]

TWINKING: i do believe there is nothing wrong with helping a newbie out by giving him some stuff. But i do believe that it's wrong that when ye retire yer old character that ye transfer all the powerfull stuff to yer new one. So while i think twinking on it own is not that bad, i do think there should be limits to it. A simple solution to this would be to make sure ye would need a certain skill level before ye can use that +3 sword and a even higher skill lvl before ye can use that +5 sword. This way ye can give yer new char all the stuff ye want but he wouldn't be able to use it, he could sell it and get some nice newbie equipment and never have to worry about money again. But at least it prevents them from using the powerfull stuff to power level.
It could even add some spice to the lives of people who should own such a weapon by seting another goal(i could afford that +5 sword but need just a few more skills point..)

LEECHING: I am not in favor of this, this will cause player mayhem. (I started my char at the same time as you but i'm only lvl5 while you are lvl 40..strange..ye are just a cheater..no i'm not..yes you are etc.) It will also have a negative impact on player cooperation in the lower lvls,( i don't need a 5th lvl healer to help me..here comes my buddy the 30th lvl healer)
When ye want to play with a RL friend who just joined the game, why not just start another newbie char yerself so ye can play together.

ACCOUNT SHARING: not something i understand..i would never want someone else to use my char..it's mine, sculpted the way i want, RPing the way i want, someone else would just mess this up. But if players have no problem with this, i don't see a big problem with it either (except of course that they rip of the game company)

[Morte]

A slight problem with tieing certain more powerful levels to higher levels is that there are no character levels, and while there are skill 'levels', a character can be very powerful in one skill or somewhat less powerful but proficient in more areas. A somewhat more complex system must be devised than the one mentioned, although it can be done without too much hassle.

[Binzaf]

on a skill based game i dont see leaching as a prob. i.e. you might be equal to a "level" 40 war and your friend that just started a healer. could in all likely hood have better healing cababilities then you. so they will contribute to the fight.

twinking in a skill based game. "could" be a prob but i see that +5 holy defender given to someone with 5 skill as not helping a bit. and also a soft cap here could fix that easy enough.

as for account sharing i see no prob with that. to many times i've played with peeps in eq/uo/ac that were roomates and or siblings. in that case i see nothing wrong with it. as for the wizzy camping the fbss in eq. that is being tag teamed by a guild. ie played by multible peeps. yes that is a pain in my arse. ;) but this falls into the backyard category. ie if its not in my backyard i dont care. or think of it as, if doesnt effect me i dont care. however you want to think about it. i have noticed some people that get downright upset over an issue like this. by just hearing of it even.
hehe *waits for reply* :)

[Geoffrey]

Boy, you know, nothing gets me mad like like seeing a bunch of twinks running around. I mean, that high level dude, Tom Bombadil helped those n00b halflings get kewl Westernesse swords, then one of them goes and kills the King of the Black Riders! Plus they had that GM wizzie, Gandalf helping them out all the time....

Just a little tie-in from the fantasy book thread.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with any of the three. I play games because I'm interested in developing a character or exploring a world or hanging out with friends. I don't play to see who is the most l33t. I'll tell you right now, I've sometimes given new EQ characters by giving them a few plat to jump-start their career, just to avoid a bit of tedium.

Personally, I wouldn't worry so much about what other people are doing. Concentrate on making sure you have a good time.

[fartius]

I agree with Geoffrey on this one.
Try not to worry about what everyone else does, just do whatever it is ya do to have the most fun :)

[Talka]

"Try not to worry about what everyone else does, just do whatever it is ya do to have the most fun"

Imagine this - you work 18 hours a day on an exhausting and important job. Slaving away, you get payed, simply, very, very, little. Meanwhile, your next door neighbors don't go to work, and get paid 4 times as much as you. Are you going to ignore the obvious problem here, and 'do what you have to do, and don't care about others,' or see what it is they're doing. In this case, they're doing something that falls very close to 'cheating.'

PS: I'll be here today, and tomorrow mourning, then I'm gone for 2 weeks strait.

--Talka

[Geoffrey]

Talka,

If I have to work 18 hours a day while my neighbors for no reason at all didn't have to work at all for the same standard of living, then I probably would be mad.

But in a game, if I see twinks or powerlevelers, I don't really care.

Why? One is the real world, with real consequences for life. The other is just a game-something to keep me entertained in my spare time. In the grand scheme of things, the MMORPG you play will almost certainly have no bearing at all on your real life.

[Talka]

Okay - the reason MMORPGs are popular are becuase 1) You have your own character, which is nice and 2) You want to be the best. Its true. That's why most people play MMORPGS. To me, yes, its a form of entertainment. However, I want to maximize 'Fun Time' ;)

Another way of thinking is that you put time into your character. Some put in years of work. Sure, the work is fun and all, but when you put in lots of time, you expect to get the same as what others get. Would you play MMORPGs if you got 1/50th of the 'experience' everybody gets? You might say you'd just role-play, but you know you wouldn't play. And its like that. With twikers, lecchers, and char sharers, they have a special, unfair advantage.

--Talka

[[EDIT: Typo (An important one =/]]

[fartius]

Some good points in both posts...

I think twinkers, char sharers and the like will always exist in a game genre such as this. It is pretty hard to stop it from happening without totally crippling certain aspects of the game.

I remember when Asheron's Call opened a new server world, there was this one guy, who got played by 3 players, he levelled up REALLY quick. To the level that matched previously established characters on the other servers, in just one month.

Anyways, it's all just a game we play to have fun during our free time. If someone is griping over the fact they see someone getting twinked taking on bigger more xp producing monsters, well good for them. Meet up with a friend and have him twink you, if you so desire the biggest xp. If not, just go about your normal gaming routine.

If ya can't beat'em, join'em. Yeah...overused saying, but...it sure applies here.

Its late and I dont know if any of the above makes sense at all...heh. :)