Equipment/Items vs. Skill

[Ruadin]

I just posted the message below to another board and thought I'd share it with you folks since it would apply to Arcanity as well.

I'm starting this thread to find out how people feel about equipment and what role it should play in MMORPGs. All too often, a character is defined by its equipment. It goes beyond being a symbol of status or some form of trophy, to being the main requirement without which a character is all but crippled. This in my opinion is a very bad approach. Equipment, unless its magically enhanced to do so, does not make you a better swordsman or magician or whatever your profession of choice might be. Hence a veteran warrior, though armed with nothing but a wooden staff, should be able to best a novice warrior who is armed to the teeth (novice doesn't necessarily imply newbie). This is assuming that the veteran warrior is properly trained with that staff and is the more skilled of the two.

Similarly, a powerful mage, disguised in beggar's clothing should be able to cast the same devastating spells that he/she could cast otherwise, without the aid of any fancy equipment.

As with real life, you don't find a pen that gives you +5 to your writing skills. Or a cap that will make you a better thinker when worn. It just makes no sense. However its makes perfect sense that the above mentioned pen, if of high quality, would help you write more comfortably and thus more legibly. The actual content however is not affected either way.

Before you protest that this game is based on fantasy and should be treated as such, I presented the above example for the sake of argument and to make a point. Nonetheless, I believe such a model would be much more believable and immersive than one in which magic items and equipment are commonplace and where they influence your skills and abilities.

[toray]

I'm very much of the opinion that skill should be far far more important than equipment.

That said, magic is a bit of a pain in this regard. If you allow magic to increase abilities, then you should do so in a percentage method (IE, I find a sword that can raise my sword skill by 5%). This way you don't have cases like Asheron's Call, whereby a high level mage can cast sword mastery other VI on you and raise your skill by a large fixed amount (35 points, which could be 50% for a newbie swordsman, and 6% for me...)

I would love to see magic implemented in this fashion, so as not to overwhelm skill.

Cheers,

[Slitherrr]

Amen, brother Ruadin, the prophet has spok-en! Can I get a witness! Any sword that makes one better at swinging should be rare rare rare, because skills should be the determining factor. Otherwise, you lose the special-ness of the item, you lose the sense of the time that went into such a special item... And you ruin the economy :-P If I'm a master rapierist, I want to be able to be a master rapierist, WITHOUT needing equipment to make me a master. I mean, if you can't trust in yourself, what're you gonna do? More of an issue in real life, to be sure, but if I'm playing this character, I want it to have a life of its own, so he's gonna be damn concerned about such things. Big resounding YES to low dependance on equipment.

[Lordosis]

... there's not gonna be rapists in Arcanity. So you can't be a rapist, Slitherrr, let alone a MASTER rapist. OH, rapiERist! nevermind :)

I think we pretty much agree with you guys on this (equipment, not rapists). The most common type of "magic sword" would most likely have an extra magical damage factor. It wouldn't boost your melee skills by any means. It would take a very special magic item or spell to do that, if it even exists. And remember that armor provides protection against damage, it doesn't raise your "armor class". So if you are a naked warrior, your lack of armor won't affect your ability to avoid getting hit (in fact, it might even help since you won't be weighed down).

[Wrentia]

I know you all feel that weapon proc's should be a very rare thing and I agree, but I also think there could be a reverse proc that would be equally rare. As an example, a suit of armor might proc a heal spell on the wearer when the armor is hit. (Again, procs of any type should be fairly rare to exceedingly rare) Just wondering what you all thought of the "reverse" proc.

-Wrentia

[Ruadin]

I think reverse procs would be cool if implemented within reason. The more rare such instances are the more novel they become and consequently the more sought-after as well.

Traditional RPGs rarely had an abundance of magical equipment. It would typically take several campaigns to amass even a bare hand-full of magical items and even then, the most powerful of these would probably be along the lines of; +2 hitroll bracers or a +2 int hat or a resistance to fire ring. Most times these items would be considered rather good, even for a middle-upper level character. However nowadays it seems you could find such items in an over-abundance at the lowest levels of advancement.

I believe this is a good reflection of the materialistic society we live in. Possesstions, not skills and abilities, are our status symbols today. There's no difference as I see it between "my 350 hp Mustang with a super-charger will smoke your Camero anyday" and "My two-handed sword of flaming death is bigger than yours!"

While there's nothing inherently wrong with wanting to become powerful in a virtual world, it needs to be ensured that such power is deserved. Hopefully there will be checks in place to make magical and unique items a rarity.

[Wrentia]

Originally posted by Ruadin
"my 350 hp Mustang with a super-charger will smoke your Camero anyday"


OK, I wanna know how many of you reading that the first time read it as "my 350 hit point Mustang....." :)

-Wrentia

[Saint Faucet]

I'll admit it, Wrentia. That's how I read it the first time.

[Ruadin]

Heheh...

A Mustang hits you for 150 damage!

[Lordosis]

It's a moot point anyway, since a 385 "hit point" Corvette Z06 could wipe the floor with both the Rustang and the Camaro at the same time. :)

[Cynycal]

it'd be cool to duel wield like two escorts..no wait it wouldn't..nevermind

[Slitherrr]

Not Escorts, but maybe Escort GT's...

[Thirty]

Well, it might be possible to get a better balanced weapon, which might add some to ability to hit by a small amount, although I suspectt the major difference would be you get less tired while using it. It could certainly be sharper, more effectivly shaped to do damage (to some extent, like axes, or a better thrusing point on a sword) so as to increase damage some. It could also be stronger, so as not to break when parrying or blocking, maybe allow a bit heavier blow, without being too heavy (thats a big deal with swords, strength vs lightness). A lighter weapon while still being strong and well balances should hit somewhat faster, once you get used to it, although theres a limit on how much penatration a light weapon can do. A lighter weapon can be faster but penatrate less well through armor. When it comes to weapons, skill will be a lot bigger than items however, although this assumes at least an average quality weapon versus a great quality one, a poor quality weapon might not be much good to anyone.

It seems to me that armor, not exactly needing skill to use, has more room for improvement than weapons. More protecive for the same weight has abvious use, more flexible while keeping the same protection could help you dodge and get less tired wearing it, better balance weight wise is mainly to get less tired in (training and excercise in armor helps a LOT here though).
So lets see.
Better protection for same weight is easy, less chance you take damage if hit (less chance the blow gets through the armor). Smaller vulnerable spots like joints, eye slits, armpits, etc, made possible by more cunning design, better stronger metal (or whatever its made of), and proper thicknesses to protect the most likely hit spots whithout being too heavy by being that thick everywhere.
Better balanced means get less tired while using it, especially while fighting. It may also reduce any penalty to movement from heavy armor. The same with lighter armor that gives the same protection as heavier armor.
More flexible, better balanced,and/or lighter while still giving same protection armor can reduce the penalties of armor to dodging, pound for pound. It can also help you run faster etc. It might help you attacking some to, since more flexibility doenst crimp your movements as much.
Shields may benefit a bit more also, since they must be moved to use them, it stand to reason a lighter or better balanced shield will help some.

So Id say for weapons, the original premise was right, skill counts for a lot more than the weapon. With armor, since its not skill driven the possibility of improvement here is much greater. No armor or weapon will help you dodge better, but they may reduce the penalties normally associated with that kind of armor to dodging/moving.

[Thirty]

BTW, heres my read on different armor types.
Thick padding- fair against bludgeon attacks, fair against slashing, fair against arrows if at long or at least medium range (crossbow bolts are another story), a lance will go through, other peircing weapons may also if strongly thrusted. Has the disadvanteges of being able to only cover the body without binding a lot (and its rather bulky even there) and tends to rot away or be destroyed in battle if slashed at enough, its also quite hot. Cheap, easy to fit.
Thick soft leather- Fair against bludgeon attacks (assuming its pure bludgeon, like say a staff, a lot less effective agaisnt say a flanged mace) not so good at slashing, rather poor against peircing (might stop arrows at very long range, a lance would go right through). Cheap and readily avaiable. Can be fairly well balanced weight wise. Fairly easy to fit.
Hardened or lacquered leather- Quite good against bludgeon attacks, the very thick peices will even stop blunt lead bullets, although those peices are usually only possible at breatplate or shield. Maybe low average against slashing attacks. Can be peirced, a spent arrow can be stopped, but a lance will go right through. Can be quite well balanced weight wise. Some types need special fitting, and it takes some skill to make this stuff, still cheaper than iron.
Mail- Great against slashing, its protection against bludgeon depends on the padding beneith it almost entirly, so its only slightly better than thick padded on the body, and rather poor on the arms and legs. Can stop arrows at longer ranges, medium if it has thick padding to help, but a determined thrust by a hand held weapon can go through and split the links, a lance will go right through. Special peircing weapons always exist to do just this in mail using areas. Easy if time consuming to make, and easy to fit or retailer, and it can cover just about everything, like hands and feet. Weight can be feirly light to quite heavy depending on the thickness of the links, thicker gives better protection. Not well balanced, a lot of weight goes on the shoulders, although the lighter suits are fairly flexible. Popular because its a lot easier to make and fit than say plate, so it can be passed down though generations or sold and retailered.
Brigandine- Small metal plates rivited inside soft leather or strong cloth. Quite good at slashing, only fair at bludgeon because of its flexibility (ok on the body, less good on the exremities). Against arrows its fair, it flexes when hit thus absorbing some of the arrows energy, before the arrow has a chance to try and penetrate. This doesnt help it agaisnt thrusting weapons though, a determined thrust may push between the plates, a lance may as well. Usually seen in two types, heavier war armor, and quite light and flexible armor for wearing as clothing around town (usefull against kives and such). Needs some special fitting, but can be retailored, usually used on the body, less common for arms and legs where its flexability makes to too vulnerable to bludgeon attacks (a common suit is brigandine body, cheap plate armes and legs, and a bit of mail to cover joints, easier to make than a full plate suit). Fairly well balanced. Looks great, since the rivit heads are often guilded, and the leather covered with velvet.
Lamallar- Small plates laced to each other (very common in oriental countries). Quite like brigandine, but a bit more flexible, and thus a little better at stopping arrows and a little worse at determined thrusts and especially lances, and bludgeon. Since this is made of small plates, it is possible to make steel plates and give better protection, often seen in Japan (this is a lot more epensive and time consuming). Quite easy to retailer to fit anyone. The plates are often laquered, and can be of different colors.
Scale-In many ways the same as the above 2, but since the scales are on the outside, it is very vulnerable to an upward thrust (such as with a dagger). Also, the plates must overlap somewhat more, so this stuff is quite heavy, and parts are not well balanced weight wise (tends to weight on the shoulders). Quite cheap and easy to make and retailor.
Plate-Great against bludgeon, since it spreads the blow out (against say a staff hardened leather might be about the same, against a flanged mace this might be a bit superior). Probably about equel with chain or brigadine against slashing, although the blow might slide off sometimes, so maybe slightly better. Probably about the same as brigadine agaisnt arrows, it doesnt flex to absorb any of the force but can deflect the arrow away. Quite good agaisnt thusting weapons, especially lances. Even better if it is carefully designed to deflect all blows away from all weak spots. Needs lots of special fitting and cannot be retailored, which is why these where often captured and held for ransom. Some parts need more tailoring than others, a breatplate can be made to fit most, upper arms and legs are fairly easy, articulated full arms are fairly hard, legs are harder yet (you need to fit the shins exactly for a really good suit), and feet and especially hands are quite difficult.
Its protection against thrusts is dependant somewhat on the skill used to make it, cheap plate can leave bigger gaps at the lower legs, hands, arms, and joints. A cheap suit like this will give almost the same protection as a more expensive one against slashing and bludgeon, but a lot less against peircing. A really well made plate, with full articualtion of all joints, can be nearly impossible to find a joint (one group of peasants gave up and went and fetched an axe), but these take lots of special fittings, equipment, and skill to make (hence the cheap plate arms and legs and brigadine body combo). Also, special shaping can help lances and other peircing weapons glance off easier. Usually made of iron, with the surface case hardened so as to glance off laces (its not really possible at this level of technology to make steel plates this big).
Some less well developed cultures make some parts of plain iron, or bronze, usually breastplates, sometimes a few other non articulated peices, this good against bludgeon and slashing but less so agaist peircing.
Most hemets have the top part made of plate, with the sides often using scale, mail, leather with some plates attatched, or some such. These are common everywhere, being fairly easy to make. They are good against slashing, less so against bludgeon due to the flexible sides, fair agaisnt arrows (the top is good protection, the sided less so), and all peircing wepaons can get at the open face (which is usually protected by holding a sheild up).
Some rivit metal plates to each other, covering the sides usually as well with plate, this is easier than a full coverage plate helm, but a mace might smash it apart, and other weapons can catch on the rivits and thus not slide off, and it tends to be rather heavy as the plates must overlap. These are only slightly less protective than plate, but signifigantly heavier, these are semi expensive, a bit more than the above but less than plate. Some orientals make a rivited top and lammaler sides, sometimes of steel plates, good protection (especially against slashing)but some are rather heavy though. A few great helms with face coverage as well are a bit more expensive but very heavy, they use mail to cover the neck, and the helm comes down lower to cover the front of the neck.
The more well deleloped countries can manage a helm that covers the sides and back as well as top, all of one peice of case hardened iron. Sometimes the face is proteced as well, usually a mask or bars to deflect slashing and to some extent bludgeon blows and for the mask lesser thrusts. Lighter than the rivited kind, and a bit better at sliding off blows, especially lances. Good agaisnt all attacks, except thrusts to the face. Moderatly expensive
The full plate version with facemask is a lot lighter than the rivited great helm but gives the same protection to all the head and face (the neck is usually protected by mail, and to some extent the face mask which comes lower in front to cover the front of the neck). Good protection to all attacks, the only weak place being the neck, a small target, and that only to say a lance thrust. Fairly expensive.
The really sophisticated versions also cover the neck joint with plate as well, these need special fitting. If you have to ask, you cant afford it (much like full articulated plate). These tend to be a bit lighter than the above, since they fit closer. Good protection agaisnt all attacks, especially lances.

[Thirty]

BTW, ive posted two long messages, here and two under archery, in the hopes of making this thing more relistic than other games, where mail is as good at resisting strong thrusts and bludgeon as plate, brigandine and lameller are unknown, leather is soft leather or nothing, padding doesnt exist, etc. Youll be glad to know Iv pretty much exausted that part at least

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Yes! Thirty!
Great post on the armor and weapons

[BelDragos]

I agree but I hope I never have to use them.

[gilgamesh]

Thirty seems to have gotten the effects of armour once you've been hit pretty comprehensively covered, but I'm wondering what effect armour will have on your odds of getting hit?

Will someone in cumbersome half-plate be as agile in defending themselves as that naked guy with a staff (ahem... that came out all wrong...)? Will encumbrance reduce your ability to dodge and avoid, while armour takes a bit of the sting off of blows that hit home?

My apologies if this has already been answered somewhere else... I'm new here.

gilgamesh

[Kymeri mac An Iolar]

Yes it will Gilgamesh. There's a thread which talks about the man in Gothic plate vs rapier. They are planning on a encomerence system.

[BelDragos]

How about a parry system? Could the naked man use his staff to parry blows adding to his defence?

[Thirty]

Far as I know there will be a parry system. Also, something not seen yet, a sheild use skill system, plus dodging reduced by armor system. Im also hoping for a weapon minimum and maximum range system, mainly for long stuff like spears.

[gilgamesh]

It would also be interesting if, in addition to the standard weapon damages and speeds, some weapons were just plain better at defense (or disarming, or whatever) than others.

Trying to hit the naked guy with a staff should be harder than trying to hit a guy in chain carrying a dagger. Of course, the naked guy will be hooped when he gets hit without armour, but that'll be his problem...

Maybe the weapon reach idea would solve that? Attacking someone (or something, to be fair to monsters) with a longer reach gives you a slight negative on your to hit?

I suppose it would put the proverbial ten foot pole back in vogue...

[Thirty]

Uh, I wasnt thinking of that. Its more like, with a 10 foot spear, I can hit them if they are say 6-10 feet from me, but if they get inside that range I cant hit them as the spear is too long, I must drop the spear and whip out another weapon. Other solutions are to stay back and be more mobile then they are (so you need lighter armor), or the best solution, have 2 or more shorter weapon and shield guys in front of you, you attack from behind and between them, they prevent the enemy from getting at you. Of course, having two gnomes trying to block a charging giant might not be smart.

There are other types to, like 2 handed swords, if the enemy gets real close you can still hit, but only short chops, so less damage, plus you can parry OR attack so you wont get near as many chances to attack.

With really big critters, the spear might be just the thing because they have a long reach to, and you dont want to get too close or they will squash you. Wear lighter armor, use long spear, dodge around a lot (one hit might kill you), and look for an opening.

[BelDragos]

It seems logical that if you are using a 10' spear and your opponant steps within the weapon range you wouldn't be able to use the spear for the slash or impale attack that it was designed for. You would still be able to improvise an alternate use of the spear, after all the spear was not held at the butt but halfway up the shaft. The spear was swung at the target or thrust at the target to use the sharp pointy end to disable them. The other end of the weapon was used to land stunning blows of to do sweep attackes at the feet or planted in the bread basket to stun them followed by a killing thrust. Someone who chooses a weapon must train in every possible use of they will only be cannon fodder. The spear was also a missle weapon but I won't get into that can of worms yet.