What Races?

[Rolfe]

I have a question for the gamers. What races would everyone like to see in the game? Are dwarves and elves important? Are gnomes and halflings as important as dwarves and elves? If you could have only FIVE races in the game, what would they be?

Any input is appreciated, thanks.

[Arctan]

I'd love to see elf, dwarves, human, troll, gnome if only 5 races :)

[Saint Faucet]

I'd definitely like to see the stock races of human, elf and dwarf in the game. I'd also like to see some sort of devil/demon race, as well as a merfolk-type race (even if they can't breathe under water).

I'm guessing you guys want bipedal races too. Less models and code to craft and implement if you're only dealing with two legs.

[Slitherrr]

I'm actually pretty big on races with entirely different mindsets myself... A race of insectoids, perhaps. It would provide an extremely different point of view in manners of weaponry, communication, outlook on life, and etc, something most MMORPG's don't have (or can even attempt to pull off). Then there's always the lizardman/draconian type of race, which I've always liked for no particular reason other than they are scaly. Humans are a must-have, they are the easiest to compare and the easiest to base anything on. As for all the other races, I am totally ambivalent, I have likes and dislikes for elves, trolls, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and etc. that almost totally balance each other out.

[Rolfe]

Saint Faucet, you mentioned "devil/demon" races? I'm curious on what the general feeling is on this. Does the race have to be specifically called "demons"? And do they have to look like a demon? Or do you simply mean that an evil race in dark, hooded clothing would be a good addition? Like would dark elves be equivalent, or perhaps a more original dark race? We've had lots of ideas in mind for races, but we're just now focusing all those ideas and completing some profiles on the different races. The Akazi are the first and they should be done soon, but I wanted player input before we commit to or eliminate any of the other races we have.

[Saint Faucet]

I wasn't thinking about something like dark elves. I figured that if there were going to be 'dark elves', then they'd be a subset of the overall elven race.

I was thinking of a race that was demonic, but not necessarily one that was called 'demon' or 'devil'. Kind of nightmarish creatures with lots of big teeth, horns, inhuman coloring of their skin (green or a fiery shade of red), deformed/distorted facial features, maybe even plate-scaled skin, etc.. It would be a group that would give the other more normal races that uneasy feeling of forboding darkness when looked upon... even if they weren't inherently evil.

[Rolfe]

hmmm... I see. Well I've had a race like that in mind for quite some time now. I've never played a game with "demons" or "devils" in it, and I was curious if, since I know that other games have them, it was important for them to be "demons" or "devils" or if just a dark race was what was needed. So far, the dark race I have in mind isn't very developed, but I'll see about getting them more developed.

On the plus side, I just got the O.K. from the others on Minotaurs. I'm really excited about them, because I really think they're under-rated. Minos have a lot of potential I think as a player race.

[Slitherrr]

Yay minotaurs! And what's even better, if someone kills the minotaur, the helmet won't fit!

[Skunk[UDL]]

I would stay away from naming this dark race "devils" or "demons". This is too stagnant a being. A new race and name would be very interesting. Very dark, very evil. That is the problem with a lot of games like your EQ, UO, etc. etc. is that they do not REALLY let you play an evil character. This new race should be able to do his/her evil acts, but with a price.

For example, the PvP based group could play this new evil race, as they will be attackable and be able to attack anyone. The price could be - this race is harder to advance, they are not allowed in certain areas/towns, etc.

(Don't limit your fan-base by not including a GOOD PvP system! No one wants to just "monster bash" when playing a MMPOG.)

Anyone want to discuss this further?

[Gratto]

I personally would love to see more then just the staple RPG type races. In staple I mean, Dwarfs, elves, gnomes, halflings, humans. Is there anyway possible we could get more then just 5. I would love to see numerious player races running around the lands. Lets say 12 different races would rock... Have your staple races, then how about. Giant, orc, half-giant, that beast/deamon thing, A merman, flying creature(bird man) Golem, spider-goat(sorry had too) ratman.. Hell make a bunch. I think it would bring more to the game if theres more diversority(SP) Below are some of my reasons.

1: A closer race bond between players.

2: different skill sets per race, more races=more skill sets.

3: more contension for good vs evil ingame.

4: More indepth storie.

5: increase the roleplayer experince.

6: ahh I said so. GRIN

well just some thoughts I had. IF you agree or disagree I understand.

[Rolfe]

5 or 6 races is just the estimate for release. We'll be expanding FAST after release and we'll likely try to add more races as fast as we possibly can. It wouldn't be unreasonable for us to increase from 5 to 10 within a few months after release. I think everyone definitely agrees with you that more races will certainly make a more exciting game for all of the reasons you listed (except for #6) and many more reasons.

[Nezarr]

I would have to agree with Skunk on different types
of races I mean ya have games out there that have a
system in place of yer "typical" races and they are getting
stagnant the game has stalled and goin nowhere. Lets face
it gamers want a change and from what I heard it is right
here :) Evil race is needed wanted by me at least ;> As
for drawbacks I think each race should have them as well
as advantages makes things more intresting :)

Nezarr

[toray]

I think you're better off with a focus on a small number of playable races, with detailed histories and backgrounds for each race. Provide political factions and religious factions within each race and overarching political and religious concerns that are bigger than racial matters. Depth of immersion is more important to me than the number of races available.

Because you're going to have to balance the abilities of all your characters (ie, a lvl 1 gnome will be roughly as effective as a lvl 1 minotaur), you're going to have a hard enough time truly defining your races as is. I would prefer to see a smaller number of well-developed races with clear advantages and disadvantages (ie, Minotaurs find that Str is cheaper to buy than gnomes do, but gnomes have an advantage in another stat. Repeat ad nauseum until you get very disparate but balanced races that, advantages notwithstanding, don't force races into specific "class" roles) than have a large number of races that differ only cosmetically.

Cheers,
Toray

[Scrote]

re: Demons - Horizons has Demons in it and they're calling them "Demons" and they appear to be Demons in the Christian sense since there are also "Angels" as playable races. Naturally they'll avoid using any Christian mythology in the game and they'll probably be Demons in the D&D sense, but all that was just a bit of FYI stuff.

That said I'd really love to see something different in this game. By different I mean REALLY different. Why stick with the old Orcs/Elves/Dwarves/Dark Elves routine when you have the opportunity to break some new ground here? Fantasy RPGs have always wallowed in the same old stereotypes and this leads to predictability.

While it wouldn't be the end of the world if you did choose to go with the "standard" races I'd be extra impressed if you did something completely different. Asheron's Call - which I only beta tested - seemed to be a step in the right direction. It'd be nice to have different playable races, but it'd also be really nice to have radically different and original NPCs as well.

That said I think the most important thing to establish would be to have intelligent NPCs. Rather than spend time battling mindless gnolls/orcs/goblins it'd be truly badass to have NPCs that have their own defined civilizations and cultures that are just as powerful, established and advanced as the races players can choose. Intelligent opponents are much more fearsome than primitive monsters.

This thread is about playable races though so I'll try to stick to the point. I think a good course of action here would be to read what toray said since he stated what I believe very clearly - Provide political factions and religious factions within each race and overarching political and religious concerns that are bigger than racial matters. Depth of immersion is more important to me than the number of races available.

Keeping that in mind you should strive to come up with original races. Minotaurs have been mentioned, they're pretty cool - as long as they're smart (I don't know why but I tend to lump them into the Mindless NPC category, it'd be nice to have them actually be intelligent beings with goals and agendas). Humans, of course. And then what? Well following this line of thinking you could do just about anything you wanted. Midgets, tall people, people with 6 arms, whatever... as long as they made sense in the game world, as long as they were original and as long as each race had clearly defined goals and differences.

One final aside - humans could technically be the only playable race because if you look at us as a race you can see how there's a near infinite number of 'factions' and groups, each with different dreams, each with different sets of ethics, each with different skills. So if you do decide to have Minotaurs I'd love to see variety amongst the minotaurs. In other words, all Minotaurs shouldn't follow the same leaders or the same beliefs, they should be as varied and interesting as humans are. Know what I mean?

This post is too long so I'll end it here, but I like the way you guys are approaching this game and I wish you the best for the future. I'll be hanging around here quite often I think ;)

S'right,
Scrote

[Lamont]

Hey Dude,

I am the lead artist on this game and I can assure you that it will be VERY original when it comes to player races... even if we have an Ogre, it will be cooler than any you have ever seen.

I don't think dwarves are all that cool. They just remind me of hairy, stinky humans that are small. But we are gonna have 'em cuz you people like 'em. The 'Taurs or Minotaurs was a great idea from the start... they are usually portrayed as dumb people, so we might go nuts and change that.

And remember: This game is for you (and us too!! we play games as well!!). Just tell us what you think would make this a great game and we'll get on it.

[Slitherrr]

Scrote, you hit it on the head man, I'm tired of how most of the fantasy (ie AD&D) today tends to make all dwarves act basically the same, all elves basically the same, ad infinitum, and make humans basically the only beings with any depth... They keep giving the reason that humans are varied because they don't live so long, but that's a load right there, you'd think that with a couple hundred years to live you'd have plenty of time to develop different subtypes of your own race just like there are subtypes of humans. In depth! In depth! Go Arcanity!

[Deafsong]

Alright, so I surfed in and started reading, and got ot thinkin' Minotaurs cool. Humans can't really do all that much without 'em. I like the idea of a 'dark race' but to me having an Evil race playable makes the non playable evil races like goblins, sort of like second class citizens OOCly. Especially if they are going to have AI such that they will spawn their own cities gradually. I'd prefer something Demonic in nature, predisposed to vileness and prejudical upset, but not nessecarily mindlessly destructive. It seems to me that there just arn't enough Evil people RL to truly fill out and Evil race in game and make them Evil.
Instead what I would like to see is races that are very physically different and step away from the Tolkien strand. An Avian race sounds awesome to me(Hell if they could actually fly in-game I'd pay 50 bucks a month for a game that was capable of that diversity) Even if they can't fly. Merfolk sound awesome too, give'm a predispotion to Psionic magic for that underwater communication and ya got my attention. Goin' along those lines, What about something Reptilian, Not nessecairly A lizardman, but has anyone heard of Naga's? Them things with no legs but a snake tail instead. Then ya got humans for the mammals... Maybe something plant-like. Dryads.... Nixies.. not nessecarily flying pixie like things, or Tower Tree-men.. But it might be cool to see a race that changed colors with the seasons... Anyway, Just my rambling imagination. As you can tell I have no clue about what game engine's and technology is capable of. But I sure know what I think is cool.

Deafsong.

[Lamont]

Hey,

This is the type of stuff great games are made of!! I thank you all for this type of feed-back!! This will truely be a diverse game with very cool races of people. We have thought satisfy you hunger for a flying race (I really think that is cool by the way) a few days ago, and images and sketches will be on the way as we progress. We don't know if they will be able to traverse the heavens and live in an air-borne city or not. We'll keep you posted!!

Lamont

[Deafsong]

Whewhooo! Airborn.... (ya'l know I wa sjust exaggerating the whole 50$ a month.. right?) More info is comin' on the race? It'd be cool if it was Avian, and sorta had a Native American culture feel to it. With shamans, and being nomadic, and having similiar style of names. "Closeness to nature"

Is it possible to have races that are greatly varied in physicality? 4 legged ones, or something like a Naga?

[Lamont]

We have a 4 legged race... A Lion-ish bunch of people.

Lamont

[Edited by Rolfe on 09-10-2000 at 12:20 PM]

[Gratto]

Hmmm, I sorta like Deafsong's idea. How about two races, one being a native american type, and one nomadic/vikings or maybe a mixture of the two. There was mention of ships within the game. Vikings and ships would go hand in hand I think. Or maybe a scottish highlander type thing also.

[Cynycal]

i had to re-register my handle n' all..oh well anyway..i was just gonna say that i'm a short, hairy human...=)

[Rolfe]

MINOTAURS, Lamont, not CENTAURS. MINOtaurs!!!!!!

[UBIK]

i didnt really read everything here since there is just way too much, but, i think there should be some type of shadow race whereas they would be fairly week but would have powerful shaministic powers and theifs and such, like the abitily to possess someone or something like a tree or a rock or a cow

[Rolfe]

He he. No one can really have an inherent ability to posess others I don't think. That's something that has to be in the magic skills. There is actually a posess spell though. I don't remember right now for sure, but I THINK it's cleric or psionic magic. But you can actually posess an enemy. Your body drops to the floor as if you were dead and you are able to fully control the monster you cast the spell on. When you cancel the spell, you are back in your body.

[Stafir]

Yeah I know, new and already wanting to add in..oh well what are message boards for eh?


I like the idea of something besides the stock races...heck if I ever got the gall to do so..I've got my own MMORPG in mind...and it won't even have humans if I got round to it ;).


But anywho..Humans are a given..unless they all died out..might be fun. Humans are usually seen as a jack of all trades race...equally adept at everything...but they can't specialize as well as other races (like traditionally a fairy is wonderful at wizardy, but isn't so great when it comes to fighting).

Since you have 10 stat points...you have 11 rather obvious ways to make races...one race for each stat point, and one who gets no advantages or disadvantages. Now if you want to have fun..make those 11 races an archtype sorta thing...basically each race has factions (or variations..such as the liontaurs...change it to taur or felidtaur for the race name...then depending on which you do..you can have different animaltaurs (if you go with just taurs) such as horses, wolves, lizards, Lions, etc. Or if you go with felidtaur..you could have panthers, lions, cheetas..etc) anyway the idea of each faction..is they specialize in a certain skill class or subset of skills. Such as one group would be good wizards, another good druids, another warriors...clergy...etc. Basically they get bonuses for those skill types..and if you wanted to get picky, well you said each set of wizard skills has another group inside of it. That right there gives you plenty of races to dream up names and looks for :P.


Now what would I like to see myself?


Something unique...not run of the mill archtypes. i'm thinking I'm thinking ok? give me time :).


Rockpeople...(no that isn't an actual name...just what they are). Honed from magic and left over technology..these golems have gained a life of their own and can even procreate. Their creation has left them to be adept at both fighting and druidic magic (IE they get bonuses in stat points for both types). Fighting because they are litterally hard as rock, magic because they were formed from magic..druidic because being made from the earth origionally, they are able to draw from the life-force in it more efficiently.

Zooleins: Another mishap from some mages mind. In trying to create the perfect servent a wizard took the parts of many creatures and fused them into one. (No I'm not going to say how they were fused, or give a description...he he he...leave that to the artist ;). Made to be dull in thinking, these creatures do not do well as mages. However they are superb in unarmed combat, and also do well with weapons attached to the hand (IE claws you would wear on your hand). However being formed from animals, they have trouble with some types of armor..and require armor made especially for them often (you could have fun with this also :P...bonus in armor given the right body for the creature...armadillo??) When the mage died in a battle, the creatures were left to their own devices. These creatures are usually seen as abominations to druids (you can figure it out I think) and therefore have a limited amount of druid skills offered to them at first (IE druids are less likely to teach them..and they must be devoted to druidism for a longer time to get to higher skills). All mind attributes are also negatively affected, as they were initially designed as mindless fighting machines.


Demonlike race (once again, not the name...just a descriptive name): This race is a terror to behold, instilling fear in all who see them. These creatures are adept Psionics and well trained fighters. While they have a fearsome visage, and a nutorious reputation. These creatures are not exactly evil...they instead abide by their own rules, reguardless of the laws (since so many like AD&D rulings...think Chaotic Neutral).


The Fey: These are your standard magical races..ya know? Elves, fairies, leprichons, etc. Make a new one for the fun of it eh? Be good in wizardry of course :).


Quicksilvers: It is unknown what these creatures were at first..many say they were humans..but it is unknown. These creatures have a silver toned skin, their eyes slit and reptilian looking, as is their skin. Ears are non-existant, adding to the reptilian look..though they have a perfectly normal sense of hearing. Their agility and dexterity is equally high. The weapon of choice for this race is a light and slender sword or a dagger. Often known as the thieves and assassins of the world, their race is feared as well. But it isn't uncommon for these creatures to be fearsome fighters or even mages. Many think they are creatures created by some God to serve as punishes, for Quicksilvers are able to cast clerical spells with ease.



I left out humans cause they are generaly a given :).

[Slitherrr]

Golems, not a bad idea. Playing automatons has always fascinated me, like this one android character I had in pen and paper Spacemaster, whoo! And I'm telling you, a six-legged giant bug race would just rock ass, I mean, think of how impressive it'll be when some guy's watching another play, and this big bug walks across the screen, waves to the camera, and walks off to do bug-like things. You see what I'm getting here?

[mercurochrome]

This is great, this kind of free flowing communication about such central issues of the game just got me 100x more excited about it.

Whenever I first started looking into the game, I got the impression (from character sketches) that the races in this game weren't going to be the same old elf, human, dark elf stuff. Don't get me wrong, it's great (gotten us this far), but I was very interested in the idea of something more original, and this post is exactly what I was hoping for.

Of course, it's a very delicate thing, they could either be very cool, or disappointing. It all depends on how it's handled.

I thought the idea of a "demon" race was just about the coolest thing I'd heard. Not necessarily evil, just not another damn race that looks like a human with a few features tweaked.
There was discussion about the demon not being labeled as an evil race due to it's appearance, but I think that if they were gargoyles it would get rid of some of that.
Think about it...while obviously being evil looking, you don't really get the impression of a gargoyle being some mindless demon, but you could make them appear as a more thoughtful race. There would be room for casters & melee with this race, and it would definitely look a lot cooler than a half elf ;P

There are so many good ideas for races that just haven't been done before. Underwater mer-people, a kind of insect race with limited flying, or crawling abilities.
While I'm stealing this from the concept art for the new EQ expansion, there could be walrus men. Whenever I saw the art for it my first thought was "Damn, that should be a new race." Icy homeland, tough melee classes, naturally good at swimming.

I was just thinking, if you wanted gargoyles as a mainly melee race, then you could have undead as the dark caster oriented race. Not evil, just regular people, back from the dead with obvious identity (& hygiene) problems. I think the idea of an undead necromancer, or wizard....with rotten flesh hiding behind a dark hood would just give me shivers. Again, not evil...just tormented.

Oh well. These new race ideas either sound like very good ideas, or just absurdly ridiculous depending on the person. I just thought it was cool that there were posts like this that actually got read by people who could make a difference in the game. The fact that you guys are actually ASKING for our input is just amazing. Very big difference from the EQ fellas, who seem to have too much to do than actually communicate with the players with this level of honesty & openess.

[Rolfe]

Ya, It seems like there's a pretty good demand for an undead RACE. That's odd to me. I've never really thought about it until the Undead Lords started mentioning it. Can anyone give me some idea where I could find INFO on such an undead race? Does one exist already in some fiction somewhere? Believe it or not, I don't believe I've ever seen a developed undead race in a book, game, or movie. Someone give me some clues here. I hate to sound like a novice, I'm really not. But I don't think I've ever seen an undead race before.

[mercurochrome]

It seems like I saw some things about undead races in my dad's old D&D books a LONG time ago. But other than that I'm not real sure that there is something like that in other fiction. I'm sure there is somewhere, but i have no idea. The only thing I know of that is related would be liches (sp?). And I don't even know much about those besides that they are undead casters.

[Scrote]

Undead Race - I'm not fond of the idea at all. It's an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. What would their goals be? To kill everyone and make the world a dead, barren place where they can... where they can what? Worship their god of death? What is death without life? Nothing. Without life death is meaningless, so they'd end up defeating themselves. Doesn't really make sense to me.

Undead monsters? Yeah. Although I hate fighting skeletons & zombies and such in RPGs (I feel they're stupid opponents (not a dig at the Undead Lords - Skeletons and Zombies by definition are mindless creatures) and it's a little humiliating to fight stupid opponents) I can tolerate doing so.

But actually playing an undead creature? I dunno about that, doesn't really make sense to me.

That said, as far as an Undead Race goes, you COULD make the claim that something like Vampires are an undead race. For more information check out White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade. It's actually a pretty badass RPG system, these creatures do have goals and dreams and conflict and problems and they're integrated into the game world. It could probably work in a (semi) fantasy setting. Might be worth a look.

S'right,
Scrote

[Saint Faucet]

But what about Necromancy, Scrote? It has been mentioned that Necromancy will be in the game. By definition, it is the "art that professes to conjure up and commune with the spirits of the dead in order to predict the future".

Maybe the dead got tired of being used in this way and their revolt required a physical presence on the world (ie the undead race). The Undead race would not know peace until Necromancy has been completely destroyed.

Maybe the dead cursed a group of Necromancers for disturbing them and the results were an 'Undead' race that's only path to freedom would be the destruction of their own art (sort of Anti-Necromancers).

Maybe the creation of an Undead race was some sick joke by a bunch of drunken deities.

Who knows? The background possibilities for an undead race are endless.

[Slitherrr]

For crying out loud, skeletons and zombies would not NEED to be brainless critters, that's just the accepted view of them in most literature. This is our world, we could make it all anything we wanted to, and if you're looking for motives, just look at all the other races. They'd have to have a really special history, one you wouldn't find anywhere else, but hey, no problem with that that's preferred with any race. It would be interesting too, because being so different they would have to have different ideals and outlooks on life, although they wouldn't have to be what we expect them to be.

[Dyson]

I don't think a "race" of undead would work, but certainly vampires and such could be incorporated into the game structure.

Imagine this, for example:
Vampires are treated as a "restricted" class (ie, no one can choose to learn vampire skills; in fact, no one in the game world has any information, other then general myths). The first vampires would be programmer-controlled characters who could "embrace" (turn into vampires) several (maybe 20-50 on a server of 1000) players who've shown good role playing or badass fighting potential. It might be a good idea to e-mail these players in advance; while most people would jump at the chance to have special status, they should be aware of the restrictions and difficulties. Vampires would have special skills (mist form, heightened strength, healing, maybe polymorphing into animals, etc) but would have to subsist on the blood of NPC people or animals (or willing PCs), and would be killed in sunlight and suffer heightened damage from certain weapons. Bear in mind, these are extremely powerful restraints- unless you spend all your time in caves (which may be a good idea) your vampire character is useless during the day (ie, half your potential game time). By keeping the restrictions powerful (and non-reversable once embraced) you keep the number of vampires low, as only the people who really want to play them will become one (for obvious reasons, making a character "accept" an embrace should be voluntary; though vampires curse people freely in liturature, it'd suck if you were paying for the game). Bear in mind, the vampire system isn't just for RPers- powergamers might like the edges, if they're willing to deal with the restrictions.

I think a similar plan for Liches would be useful, save that only high-level wizards could become them (again, introducing various weaknesses like phylacteries apply, as well as the non-reversible status).
Feedback? I think this is a good issue to address.

[gagaliya]

Well i think race needs to be balanced for all types of players. One posibility is have only 1 race, like human and that's it. Reason is because the story said the world was the world we have TODAY before the big magic explosion, so at our world we only have humans. Or you can argue some sort of genetic mutation created other races, in the 5 races structure they are as follows. Note their name needs to be modified somewhat, since most of those races have ancient history and culture, it doesnt look right if they were all mutated from humans.


1)Human, the standard type for players who likes to be themselves, and also for the paladin / want to look good type players.

2)Gnome, GNOMES!!! GNOMES!!! for those who likes to be a shorty, or please those players who like something odd, funny or silly.

3)Giant, the strong type, for those who likes to be conan or xena *smirk* type super warriors.

4)Elf, this race has its royal followers all over the world, for those who likes to be agile, rangerish, and maybe fragile types.

5)Undead/evil race - they should have their own little stronghold at the beginning, of course everything can change later on. This should be a difficult race to play, and there should be strong racial hatred between them and the good races. I think the gods need to establish this and keep reinforce it, players will not have this preset hatred at the beginning. However once it is established, the newcomers will follow the senior players, and we can expect lots race wars hopefully. The rewards evil race have for being hated by most is that they dont have to follow a strict moral system.


The names do looks too standard and common, i think they should be modified to suit the gameworld history however their characteristic should remain similiar. Unless of course you going with something completely different in term of races, sorta like UO2.

[gagaliya]

I just reread the thread, i think the new unique race types are cool, but the standard races should also make it into the game, you be surprised how many people got attached to a certain race (especially after eq) and they log on and find all those strange races and no familiar ones. Of course a standard race such as elves, does not need to be boring, there can be so much unique and cool stuff added to them to make them standout from the rest elves.


just my $0.02

gaga

[Dyson]

On the matter of an Evil race-

Rather then a whole evil race, an evil division of other another race might be more appropriate; ie, Dark Elves or that sort of thing. Personally, I'd love to the see a typically "evil" race break the stereotypes; ie, the Deep-dwelling elves are actually good, having fled under the earth to escape their fairer but cold-hearted parent race. In this way, the overland forests could be dangerous wildlands, whereas underground waystations are the bastions of safety. Also, the players of evil races wouldn't be limited to the dingiest places. :)
Or, rather then an evil subrace, an evil nation could be designed- say, the human-populated Empire of the Dark Fist, or somesuch. If evil races are used, perhaps they could be varied on different shards, so as no one race gets the bias of "good" or "evil"(imagine the world where everyone fears bloodthirsty Acks!). This would also make things interesting if and when shards are merged.

I know my opinions on this are rather odd, however- I always liked running campaigns where good-hearted drow protected benign, farming orcs from savage pyromancer halflings. :)

What's everyone else think? Evil Race or Evil Empire, or something completely different?

[Rolfe]

Hmmm. Interesting ideas. It looks like basically, no one is going to be happy with an undead race without there being some very good explanation for such a thing to happen. I mean, we're not talking about a handful of mindless skeletons that were raised by some necromancer that's now dead. That would make sense. The skeletons no longer have a master and they roam freely in the dungeon where they were raised, seeking to tear into any living flesh they can. But now we're talking about an entire RACE of people that are undead, all with the need for company? Why would undead want company? I mean, maybe they do and maybe they don't. It just isn't quite right that they necessarily have the same wants and needs as living creatures do: social gratification, a need to belong to a group.

I doubt that the Undead Lords themselves would be interested in an undead race unless there was some good story behind the race. So, UNDEAD LORDS, tell us what needs to be done to make the undead race interesting. In the meantime, we'll be conjuring up our own ideas here at the Department of Arcane Research division of Brick House.



[Edited by Rolfe on 09-17-2000 at 11:39 PM]

[Dyson]

I'm not an Undead Lord, but I'd suggest something like the "Necropolis" setting for Ad&d (this would help reduce the dependence on necromancers and Lich-Kings for the supply of undead minion). For those who've never played Ravenloft- Necropolis; here's a brief rundown (with some slight alterations for a MMRPG environment):
Certain areas of the land are blighted with a dual existance to the Negative material plane (these can be transitory or permanent; most aren't sure why). For those who wander into these landscapes, one of two things happens.

1. They die, and are risen as mindless undead. End of story.
(for an MMRPG, any animals or NPC people who enter into such an area die and become weak undead monsters).

2. Those of strong will and determination (in the case of a MMRPG, the players), can retain some semblance of their humanity, keeping their intellect and decision-making abilities. They still, however, become undead monsters, albeit with the ability to grow in power.

A small area could be provided in the campaign world- possible one particular haunted cave complex, maybe a forest, maybe an ancient keep's lands. This would be a haven for Undead characters; a place from where they could hobnob with their own kind and flee from the forces of light (obviously, living characters cannot enter the most inner sactums, or risk death from the life-sapping energies). This way, the Undead will always have a place to regroup and mend their bones. Personally, I think it'd be best to avoid "necromancer" plotlines, as these are a bit cliched.

In the Necropolis, or as I'd like to call it, the 'Undead Kingdom' scenerio, the word "Race" is not really appropriate, as the Dead are simply elves, humans, etc, who have been forced into a bleaker, darker existance.

[DarkElven]

Sometimes it is really fun to play as a darker race (No I am Not a Drizzt Fan for you stereotypical people out there) I do like Dark Elves but I dont think it should be a race. Having some evil race would be cool. You dont even have to call it a demon or a devil but use something a little less known like "Fiend" and "Celestial" or something of that sort. still Im just as happy being surprised

-Dont kill me Im new to this board-

[Dyson]

DarkElven: I think that's a cool idea, myself. Fiends or Celestials... Does anyone have opinions on a traditionally "good" race? I don't know of many people who want to play angels, but it'd be an interesting concept. Maybe if it could be limited; ie, those of extremely good karma might be able to perform rituals to transform themselves into angelic creatures, while those of excessively vile mindsets could actually become varying levels of demons.

Either way, it might be thematically prudent to limit access to being Demons & such, simply because to have a bunch of newbie devils running around would make them significantly less scary. :)

[UBIK]

speaking of playing angels, i wouldnt mind playing as Tyreal from Diablo II, oh wait, that would mess up my master plan, i know, im gonna go have some cookies instead of posting more.....mmm..... cookies

[Macatron]

I would like to see some kind of special bonus abilities for being a certain race. A good example would be the Dracon race from the Wizardry series. They looked like a dragon-humonoid and had increased strength, but they could also spit acid at there enemies. This really made them an interesting race because of the secondary form of attack. Maybe this "demon" race that has been up in the air could exploit some kind of ability like that. Just a thought...

[Rolfe]

Dyson, I really like that idea. That would make for a very interesting player "race". You start out very much alive and when you enter an area of some sort (be it a cave, ruined city, whatever) you become undead. I like that a lot actually. I'm surprised that no one else has commented on your idea yet. Anyone?

[Slitherrr]

Probably best if you start players out as that race, instead of turning them into it when they enter a zone, and just make it extremely difficult for players of other races to get there... I like the idea too, because it satisfies everyone's need. It stands to reason that since many of these critters just have the body and retain most of their former mind, they would have many of the same needs (although in twisted forms). I like it.

[Dyson]

Maybe it could be varied as the servers went up- ie, for the first few weeks, you choose your race, then have the option of choosing where they live. The Lonely Caves (or wherever) are selectable, but in that case, the characters will be generated as Undead (the players will be notified of this before they make their decision, of course). When the Undead reach a suitable population (equal to one of the living races, say), the option to pick that area is turned off. At this point, wandering into the area drains life at a slow rate (so you might chase some undead in, but then leave when you realize your HP is ebbing away). If someone living stays in the area long enough to die, they are presented with a choice.

"You can feel the foul, necropotic energies tugging at your soul. They promise power in unlife, but you can only guess at the torments the living Dead must suffer. Succumb, or Flee? (note: this is a permanent decision)." Or something to that effect.

If they flee, their soul can regain life in the normal fashion, away from the area (whatever fashion is decided on; was that ever made clear?) If they succumb, they are reborn as Undead versions of their characters. In this way, people who die around the Undead lair aren't automatically forced to change their character, while those who wish to join the Undead can do so with relative ease.

[Rolfe]

That's a good idea. Someone in Greek Mythology went into the Isle of the Dead to retrieve his father I believe. If the living stayed on that island too long, they became dead and may walk the island freely, but were not able to leave the island anymore. The protagonist didn't know that I believe. He also didn't realize that the dead could no longer leave the island and he thought that he could retrieve his dead father. Wish I could remember more details, but very cool stuff.

[Slitherrr]

Dyson, you have some awesome ideas, I applaud you and your decision to camp the boards.

As for everything else, cool! Undead! I still think we should also go lizardman (like the Wizardy Dracon more than the D&D Lizardman... Wizardy is where I started up my reptile/human kick anyways, glad that someone mentioned that, jogged the memory. Bane of the Cosmic Forge, in fact... Ah, those were the days.) But I digress. Races=cool. Roleplaying=cool. Arcanity=cool.

[Dyson]

Thank you, Slitherr. The same goes to you, of course- I've noticed that you even have more posts then some of the developers! You're unquestioningly one of the most dedicated persons looking forward to Arcanity.

[Lamont]

I got to thinking about the Undead... I was thinking about when you become undead you occupy the same body, but it's just monotoned. It'll look like the life was sucked out. Then I got to thinking more stuff, and I was like "What if you can project your spirit around?". It can only be seen by other projections. The projections main goal is to look around and scout for you... well it was just a thought.. gotta get back to work!!

[Macatron]

Hey, glad to find another Wizardry fan Slitherrr!! I too started my fasination with Lizardmen/Dracons while playing Bane. I must have logged over 500 hours into that game (including all the times I restarted with a different party) before finally finding out that I couldn't get the Astral Dominae becuase it gets stolen right in front of me.

Come to think about it, Arcanity's world is going to be a lot like Wizardry 8's (for more info go to http://www.wizardry8.com). They are both set in the "medieval" time period, but there is still a hint of technology floating around. Well, if you're wandering where I'm going with this here goes. In W8 they are introducing a new class called the Gadgeteer. They are a special kind of class that can make very complex items out of hardly anything. And they are also skilled in manipulating things that are "high tech" in nature. Being that Arcanity is going to have remnants of a high tech society also, maybe there should be a similar class for it. You could call it a Tinkerer or even something as simple as Engineer. What do you think guys/gals?

*And I'm not I'm trying to get you to sleal W8's ideas, but rather expand on it's possiblities.*

__________________

"Even a stopped clock, gives the right time twice a day"
-Orbital

[Edited by Macatron on 09-20-2000 at 12:09 AM]

[Ruadin]

I like Dyson's ideas regarding becoming undead however I feel that it would be open to abuse unless some serious restrictions were implemented. Its Murphy's Law applied to MMOG. The idea of becoming undead may see appealing to many - especially the prospect of being able to continue developing as undead. If such a thing were to be implemented I would suggest limiting factors such as;

1) Lower level characters lack the power to become anything but zombie types - with very limited advancement capabilities.

2) Mid-levels maybe become a more advanced type of zombie with less restricted advancement.

3) Higher-levels can become some of the more advanced undead types - like lich or undead knight etc - BUT with a very important restriction - NO GUARANTEES
It should be very difficult to transform into these very advanced types, especially if further advancement is allowed.

I would suggest a high failure rate, such as 95% for example and maybe based on your class-inclinations you could become lich or knight.

To make this sort of thing even more interesting, a quest could be attached to this transformation that could increase chances for success. So perhaps if some artifact is in your possession when you enter the region where the transformation takes place, your failure rate may be reduced to say 80%. And why stop at one artifact... maybe if you possess multiple artifacts that pertain to this particular event, your chances could be further improved to 50 or 60%.

You see where I'm going with this?


As far as what races I would like to see - I wouldn't mind a deviation from classic fantasy types. It would give Arcanity a more unique feel and it would definitely make it stand out.

Considering the world is post cataclysmic, certain aspects of a pre-cataclysmic world could factor into the formation of new race types. Perhaps a barbaric group of humans that degenerated into some primitive culture - reminiscent of orc/troll/ogre and even barbarian types. Maybe some animals became sentient after the cataclysm and started developing their own unique culture. Perhaps an advanced civilization of beings lived in the depths of the ocean and were unknown prior to the cataclysm.

I want to add off the topic of races that I really like the direction this game is taking from what I've read so far. Its the games where developers listen and actually care about player's opinions that are guaranteed to be a great success.

[Dyson]

Ruadin- I do like your ideas; they're sensible and pragmatic; as for undead, though I don't think the rates of failure should be as high as you suggest, it'd be much better to start with them high then low; that way, the players will be happy if you make things easier, and you avoid the problem of "knocking down" players who've gotten too powerful.

The player Undead race was a suggestion, I hadn't considered much about their advancement. Personally, I'd like to know where everyone else is going with this- Who does and who doesn't like Undead? It is worth developing ideas for the race, or should we drop the idea now and spend our time somewhere else?

[Ruadin]

Dyson,

The reason I suggest such high failure rates is to discourage "everyone and their brother" as the saying goes, from making undead their primary goal. After all I would consider that a novelty feature rather than a norm. On the other hand, it may be just as well to reduce the failure rates and simply make it one tough race to play! :)

[Paladin]

I'm still not clear on the use/roleplay value of an undead race. I mean what would be the goals besides killing and promoting death? Could you visit settled areas, interact with merchants, or quest for the powers that be? How (other than the proposed necropolis, undead transmorgifying city thing) would this race become numerous enough to be considered a race and not just another threat from some evil overlord type? I really can't see this race reproducing to become a viable race. Do 2 undead types procreating have live or undead progeny? If this city/undead battery thing is destroyed by the forces of good, which would probably top their to-do list, what happens to the race, or the characters who play this race, then?

Just some idle thoughts from a future Do-Gooder.

[Ruadin]

Paladin,

I don't see an undead race as being a long term thing. Let us suppose that some player goes into the previously mentioned necropolis and manages to become some kind of powerful undead - say a lich. Now that lich is stuck in that necropolis and surrounding region for the most part. Let say this lich starts spawning legions of darkness. The local residence start getting annoyed with all the skeletons and zombies roaming the country side, so they decide to strike at their very source. A large group of players gang up and march against this new lich and its fortress of evil, eventually vanquishing it. The necropolis is now gone but it managed to generate a whole lot of RP value.

The evil that spawned the necropolis may now lay dormant until some future time when it could resurface again and take new form...

[Ruadin]

I neglected to address the zombie option. Think of that as being a curse of sorts. My suggestion was to keep zombies limited. Aside from it being somewhat fun to scare off all the NPCs and having a REALLY low charisma, there's not much merit in remaining that way. And that would be the intent too... think of it as the game's way of saying "You're too low level to become anything more than a zombie in this particular scenario."

[Paladin]

Ahhh.... Okay, let's smite it! I think I'll enjoy that. Maybe Rolfie could add some shadowy evil force that is always trying to gain a foothold on this plane through the use of this Necropolis or similiar areas. Working towards this end would give the Lords of Undead something to promote besides skull motif armor and weapons. I like it!

Thanks Ruadin.

[Wrentia]

Here are some random thoughts....

Undead is something you become, not a race. That said, there are many different levels of undead. Most are summoned as in a necromancer being a little lonely, wanders down to the local burial mound and animates up a companion.
Others however are the result of some kind of interaction with an undead creature.....in our literature Vampires seek out plain old ordinary humans (well ok, they all look like supermodels), bite them on the neck a few times and create a new vampire.

I am not a fan of the vampire/undead/horror genre, I can see how some people would be attracted to it so here are some ideas on how to introduce it into the game.

1. There has to be something in world history, some sort of pact between Ancient evil god and ancient evil necromancer that leads to the god changing the necro to start the undead race....This ancient former necro then recruited others to his cause and converted them.

2. Conversion should only happen at high "levels" and there should be major penalty's involved....example...A famous knight of high power runs across an Undead Lich Lord...After a long fight, the Lich Lord strikes a killing blow, but as the life seeps from the knight the lich lord casts a mighty spell and converts the knight into an undead creature. At this point the knight is no longer a famous "high level" knight, but an anonymous low level undead. Most skills are forgotten in the conversion process. The character must now start over, but with greater beginning power than a normal level 1. In other words, most people will not want to become undead. Also, the Lich Lord should be a very rare occurance, and getting the "crit" to end fight should be rare, then the actual spell casting of conversion should be rare.

3. After Conversion, the newly undead while more powerful than a normal 1st level should have severe restrictions. Never being able to go to regular towns (good or bad alighnments alwats fear the walking dead). All items owned at time of death either desitigrate (if on person) or disapear (bank items disapear). Characters name should also change at this point. The Majority of NPC's not in towns will either not deal with the newly undead or try to kill them. Also must use specialized armor since none is made to fit an undead creature. Should have limited skill sets concentrating on necromancy, and melee skills. A few trade type skills are ok too. The undead community should be in some small very out of the way valley far from any regular town.

4. Now, there should be some powers to go along with the disadvantages. a. during battle always have a small chance to fear any non-dead. b. never lose stamina (perhpas gained at a higher level of undeadness). c. gain exp faster than other races (due to fact of having to be a very experienced character to even become undead and low level again) d. I'm sure others have further ideas...

-Wrentia



[Edited by Wrentia on 09-20-2000 at 04:18 PM]

[Lamont]

Hey,

All this undead stuff is freakin' me out!! Nah, I say that when you die, you go to a dead realm cuz where else would you go if you died? You keep your stats and armor, and your goal is to defeat the dead overlord and return to the regular world, and the person who does so would get a nice bonus!! Once the lord is defeated, whoever dies after can just roam that world as they please, or you can get an item that causes you to become temporary dead and you can go into the world as normal.. i dunno..

Also, if you are undead, you can't level up.. cuz you're DEAD!! you will be the same till you become Un-undead (does that work?)

well those are my cool gameplay/character thoughts for today!!

[Paladin]

OR- You can have it to where whoever beats the Lord of the Dead has to take his place until someone defeats him. That could prove interesting (as long as it doesn't end up like a WWF title belt).

Just my thought.

[Slitherrr]

Hmm, controversy... I can see having many restrictions on being undead, so only the hardcore undeaders would go for it. And undead could have some dealings with the living, through shady contacts that are willing to deal with em for enough cash (although barely willing). Could introduce new scandals... The fella certainly wouldn't want to be caught dealing with these nasty-smelling non-bath-takers, but the money gained from dealing with a culture(people?) desperate for items from the realm of the living would be worth it (for some).

[Ruadin]

I like Lamont's idea about fighting your way out of undead land! It would certainly be a different way of dealing with death than most MMOGs do.

The trick is to try to mesh realism and fantasy without making the process a tedious one. As Wrentia said, it would have to fit within the overall history, or at least make sense within the context of the game - which I'm sure won't be an issue.

The idea of defeating the Undead Lord is rather ambitious for low level characters... but perhaps their goal should be to elude him! That way, he force their spirits into a life of servitude. This could be an idea for some huge recurring conflict between the forces of good and evil...

The Undead Lord and his army of darkness are constantly trying to cross over into the real world, while the forces of light are constantly trying to stop them. When a character dies, its soul ends up Limbo-land which is somewhere between the living world and the land of the dead.
Then it becomes a race for 3 parties;
1) the soul must escape the clutches of the dead lord and return to the living...
2) the forces of light must find the dead soul before the lord of the undead does
3) the lord of the undead is trying to recruit this new soul before it escapes his grasp

Perhaps at the higher levels the dead souls can choose to stand and fight against the undead lord and be rewarded for defeating him.


Anyhow, I was just letting my imagination run rampant for a while back there. I will save my thoughts on death for another thread. However I like the idea of having an old and constant struggle between the forces of good and those of evil.

[Slitherrr]

Whoa, this could be one hell of a death system... It's totally different, and it just might work. Consider: It doesn't force people into perma-death, and people with higher level characters would be less likely to permanently lose their character they've worked a long time developing. Then there are the considerations for those who want to defeat the Undead Lord, the heroes that get themselves killed in hopes that they can defeat the ultimate foe of the living... Mwahahahahah! I'm gonna re-post this in the Player Death thread...

[triangle]

i would like to be able to change in to a better member of the race..

something like
race zomble doing a quest to become a lich
race lich doing a quest to becoming a lich lord

where zomble is the only selection for a new character (in undead area) but allows for a better character later on

also
draconian to winged draconian
winged draconian to dragon

human to lord
lord to king

elf to elf elder
elf elder to elf lord


this would allow for a noticable difference between newbies. midbes, and highbies in graphics and skills and stats

well. be easier just to allow better stats but keep the same skills. say new race would up the stats by 10 or so :)


graphics could have the characters looking real young at first, then older and then mature (30-40ish) at higher race levels


[Edited by triangle on 09-22-2000 at 09:58 AM]

[Macatron]

That would be really cool! But alas, I don't know how easy that would be to implement into the game. Because changing what your PC looks like (totally) could really be hard to program in (especially when your dealing with thousands of PC's). But Arcanity IS doing a lot of things differently, so anything is possible.

__________________
"Even a stopped clock, gives the right time twice a day." - Orbital

[Rolfe]

Ya, I don't think it's too realistic for some of those transformations to happen though. Like it makes sense for a knight to turn into a Lord and a Lord into a King. That WILL happen in Arcanity. But I'm not sure it would make sense for a Draconian to suddenly spawn a pair of wings, and then eventually turn from a BIPEDAL humanoid into a QUADRAPEDAL, fire breathing, winged creature that only vaguely bears resemblance to the Draconian he started out as. That seems a little odd to me. If you're trying to get the idea of rank across, we will have ranks that will be recognized by guilds. So if you are a new wizard with very low skill in casting, you'll be an apprentice. Once you gain a certain amount of skill focused in a specific area, you'll be known as a Journeyman, or a Pyromancer, or an Elementalist or something. It's possible that your guild could give you a symbolic item of some sort that you could wear. The item would show that you are an Elementalist or a Journeyman or whatever rank it is you've achieved.

[Edited by Rolfe on 09-24-2000 at 05:55 PM]

[Dyson]

I like the idea of ranking as well..in addition to being pragmatic, it just makes more sense. Though wizards and (possibly) undead wizards could turn into liches (in the former case, going through a ritual to become undead, in teh latter case, going through a ritual to "upgrade" their undead status), this would be a rare sort of transformation. I think the idea of a "morphing" character race is cool, but not right for an MMRPG.