Death?

[Gopher616]

as I stated before what about being the death of something...Discworld style?

since you could be Gods why not Death?
of course you could not come personally to everyone but just so that there actually is someone Roleplaying Death would be cool

[Gopher616]

does anyone actually check for new topics?

I've been waiting for 3 days for some kind of answer!

[BelDragos]

Like I said in another of your posts on the same subject check with Morte, Kintoun, and Ubik. Death relies upon their Portfolios and is aspected by the others.

I did not respond here because I figured you would see the other responce and be satisfied with that one.

[Gopher616]

do they ever check for new topics or do I have to send a private messege to them?

[Rend]

you have to keep in mind gopher some of the posters have posted on the same topic many times on different threads. Check out the older threads and you will usually get the answer to your questions.

[BelDragos]

I believe there were three seperate threads on Death alone.

Do a search to get some of what was discussed.

[Rolfe]

You can't actually become a god in Arcanity. You can become a deity. Normally, the two things mean the same thing I suppose. In Arcanity, the deities are actually what would be considered lesser deities- servants of the gods, but far more powerful than mortals. The gods themselves would be more powerful than the deities. I realize that the words "gods" and "deities" are normally used interchangeable, so my intention may have been a little bit unclear. I hope this clarifies it a bit though; when I say "deities" I mean lesser deities.

As far as Death, I suppose he could reasonably be either one. He could be a god himself, or he could be a lesser deity who serves the god of the underworld or abbys. If he were a lesser deity, then one could indeed become death himself!

Pardon my slow responses, but I've got so much to worry about right now. I'm doing my best to ensure that Arcanity development continues on.

[BelDragos]

Instead of using the term "deity", try "Demi-God".

[Gopher616]

well Rolfe it is more inportant to making this game happen that actually respondingto anythig I post (which I useally think is pretty unimportant...Im not really used to anyone actually listening) but I really aprecciate your response!

It would be really cool to actually have a person to play Death even if he is like a "Demi-God". It would be sort of like Hades or something right?

[Rolfe]

I believe Hades was actually the god of the underworld, keeper of the damned. I'm thinking more like if he had a demi-god servant that actually went into the living world and collected the dead, an arch-angel servant. It's like the difference between Zeus and Hermes. Zeus was the god of gods while Hermes was but a messenger servant of the gods. Hermes was the guy with wings on his feet. That's the level that players could attain. I think it's necessary. Otherwise the players, as gods, should be able to perform acts of ultimate destruction and creation. They should be able to level forests and stuff. The gods shape the fate of the world and it seems like a bad idea to... maybe there is a way. A balance of power sort of system. I dunno.

[BelDragos]

You might have been thinking of Charon, the Boatman of the River Styx.


On a more serious note, being a Demi-God has great responsibilities. If you don't keep your "job" operating it affects the rest of mortality. If Death does not do his duties then people will suffer needlessly instead of dying. Think what would happen to you if those Orcs who were torturing you discovered you cannot die. They would keep doing things that are not fit to be typed here.

[Gopher616]

sweet... would be sort of painful to have a Death that is Sadistic...hehe


I agre that the players should not be Gods and be able to shape the world...the only real Gods of the game should be the Developers.

But also if someone was the messenger to take the dead to the underworld, he would have to be constantly online, It would keep him rather busy.

You could have some video clip playing when you die and only when death has logged on you will get a "personal" death.

[z_man93]

There will certainly be the ability for a player to trascend inot the role of Diety. The only question is what types of dieties will there be, what powers will they have, and what will there responsibilities be.

If you are the Diety focused on death will it be your responsibility to go around killing people or can you better serve your god by recruiting followers that will do the killing for you. Maybe when there is more death and destrction in the world you will grow more powerful and therefore be able to bestow more power unto your followers.

[BelDragos]

The problem with someone becoming the Demi-God of Death, it is a PKer's Dream and once one gets there, there is nowhere safe for the platers who want to play the game.

[z_man93]

I'm not to worried about this situation. Of all the thousands of people that will be playing Arcanity, it will be difficult for one crazy PKer to become a Diety. If they do, then it would have taken a great deal of time and commitment for them to reach that point so I really don't care how they decide to use their power. Thats what makes life interesting. If they become a nuisance then the Diety of light may have to take some action, or players may have to do something else to stop them.

[UBIK]

yea that wouldnt be a problem. the pker will probably go back to pking newbs and ignore the powerful players in fear that they may loose their demi-godness.

Besides, who knows maybe the God of Death may want to kill a ton of people and think that a pker would be perfect to fit the project

[z_man93]

I truely believe that if a person can reach the status of demi-god then they should be able to use that power for whatever they want. If I feel that they are doing wrong with it then I guess I should try to do something to stop them. If I am not powerful enough by myself then maybe I'll need to get some friends or enlist the help of more powerful players. Maybe the only way for me to stop them is for me to ascend to the level of demi-god. Any way you want to approach the situation leaves much room for strategy, tactics, roleplaying, problem solving, which is what I believe we are interested in developing right?

[z_man93]

Another thing. As much as I think a demi-god should do whatever they want with their powers, I don't really want to see reckless use of those powers (ie. mindless PKing, helping mortal buddies complete quests, etc) I think that there should be a system in place that would guide the demi-gods along their true path. This could be something to the effect of: a demi-gods power can only increase if they are serving the will of their god. How that would be done exactly would need to be worked out. But it should not be too restrictive. It should allow the demi-god to take a path completely unrelated to the god if they want. But maybe such a path would be so degenerative to the demi-gods powers that they would lose all god-like power and become a normal mortal once again.

[Gopher616]

I dont mean that if a player actually roleplayed Death or his servant or something he would go around killing people just for the fun of it...that would never work but you could still have sombody to play him just for fun....I mean how could anyone die when death is logged out?

like you could have a movie clip showing his avatar when a person dies or something...and death could also hold one of the Cataclysm Spells, just to make things more interesting...

[BelDragos]

A Demi-God could always be booted out of their position if they displease the God they work for. The other Demi-Gods would have a say in this process and Mortals would through their "prayers". This would force someone who ursurps the Portfolio from a Demi-God to follow that Portfolio. If you don't want the position, don't go after it.

I don't know how it could be written but in Tabletop it would work.

[Gopher616]

I would like to know what rolfe thinks about this, specially what is possible to implement in game.

[BelDragos]

Then we shall await his Words of Wisdom.....

:D

[triangle]

my belief is that as long as a player doesnt make the game unplayable by another player then its ok.. if a player makes one other player leave the game then the admins need to review the guilty players actions and determine if that player should be allowed to remain in the game. i would rather the game lose 1 troublemaker then lose 10 other players.

[BelDragos]

Very true. I agree with you.

[Rolfe]

It's a good idea. All of the deities should be unique and I think we'll attempt to add Death to the list of playable deities. An AVI of death sounds a little extreme, but Death is a good deity to have because of his uniqueness. We don't want all the deities to be identical with different names and stories. Death would most likely have some necromancer-like abilities, even some clerical abilities. Perhaps he could even have a death touch.

If we wanted to take it to an extreme level, players could very occasionally be tagged for death. If death saw you, you'd be bright orange or your name would be bright red or something to make you easy to spot to ONLY Death. He'd come up and be able to attack and kill you with no penalty to himself as he's only doing his job. Of course you'd be inclined to run. If you escaped him, you may have a good chance that he'd never catch up with you again.

Or, perhaps a variation on that could be that when you die, you have a very incredibly rare chance of NOT dieing. You stay alive and your hitpoints go back to full. Nothing can hurt you suddenly. Your hitpoints are always full. A flaw in the laws of nature! There would only be one or two players at a time that had this miraculous mistake of the gods bestowed on them. Whoever plays death would be responsible for hunting you down ASAP. He'd be able to track you like a ranger from the other side of the world and you'd glow like a firefly to him. Death, the gods, and the other deities would all be able to hurt you, but it would be Death's responsibility. If he didn't get you in a reasonable amount of time (which he should have no trouble doing, but there's always the possibility of good buddies that want to take advantage of invulnerability) his powers would be stripped by his master, the underworld god, and he'd be left on the mortal plane with the pendant of servitude still on him so that everyone and their mother would be going after him to aquire the power that comes with the pendant.

[BelDragos]

Wow!!

You are getting nasty. I like.....

:D

[triangle]

sounds good.... how about letting the player get a reward from the head god if he is able to survive for a set period of time.. the longer the hunt goes on (without the player logging out) the better the reward. make this a EVENT

[BelDragos]

Start the character out with only basic powers and as he proves himself in his new role, his Boss will grant him a little more of the powers of his office until the character is a full Demi-God and has the needs of the position fully understood. This will make the position more appealing to RPers and less to PowerGamers because you really have to work for the benifits. It will also make it easier to replace the player who ignores his duties and another player sets their sights on his position.

[z_man93]

I surely agree with Bel's last post. I really see the role of a demi-god as more of a leader rather than a pvp character. So what I'm saying is that even if you are death or the demi-god that rules death I don't really see you just going around killing people. Although when we normally think of death we think of the grim reaper coming for people, but that would be difficult and boring to simulate in a game. What I would like to see is death being a proponent of death and using his powers to create more death in the world. When more death is created he gains more power. This more power can then be used to generate more death.(a la, empowing shadow knights, necromancers, creating plagues, release a pack of blood wolves in small town, etc.) And then this would force a conflict between good and evil.

This would work the same for all demi-gods. The more they serve their purpose, the more followers that pray to them, and the more their purpose is felt in the world-the more power they get.

[BelDragos]

If you take a position of Power then you have to accept the responsibility that goes with it.

Let's see what the others think.....

[z_man93]

Right, but I believe that part of modern gaming is allowing freedom. I believe that the future of roleplaying rests in letting people do as they see fit. And that means that we cannot force a person to accept the responsibilties of being a demi-god. All that we should do is guide them in an appropriate path but still allow them to choose an alternate path. Which is why I kinda recomended giving the demi-god powers and benfits while he serves his master. But if he fails his duties he may just be zapped down by his master and another NPC demi-god be created until that demi-god is defeated and replaced by a PC, or the unfaithful demi-god will continue to lose powers until he is weak enough to be defeated and replaced by another mortal.

Remember that there will be lots of people worshipping and wanting to ascend to the position of demi-god. So I think that it would be safe to say if a person takes the role of demi-god and doesn't fulfill his duties, and therfore looses power, he will soon be ovewrthrown by another player that does want to fulfill the duties.

[BelDragos]

The player would not gain the position unless they wanted it. After becoming a Demi-Power, he would have to follows his masters rules and further prove himself to gain the full benifits of the position. He should not automatically gain Full Powers. He needs to work on them like all the other abilities in the game.

[z_man93]

Right, thats exactly what I'm saying. When a PC ascends to the role of demi-god he immediately gains some power that makes him more powerful than a normal man but not anywhere near the limit of what he can potentially gain.

The main reason I think he should gain some power immediately is because if he doesn't then someone is just going to come up and kill him 10 minutes later and theres going to be this horrible turnover rate and the whole thing will just be stupid.

On the other hand we want him to play a role of demi-god and the better he plays that role the more he should be rewarded. So the more successful he is at being a demi-god the more power he should be granted.

But I don't see the role as demi-god as a pvp role so I don't think the demi-gods powers should be usable in the normal fashion. The powers should be used on a more monumental scale. Like being able to grant special abilities to your followers. The demi-gods will just be too powerful to act in a pvp role and therfore should be geared for something completely different. They are really leaders not individual characters.

Example: Say the demi-god of death has an antagonistic relationship with the demi-god of life. So maybe when the PC demi-god of death ascends his role his powers are limited to granting his followers the "vampire touch" ability which drains hp from the target and puts it in the players hp pool. But as his followers kill followers of the demi-god of light (or as more people worship death than light), the demi-god of death gains more power and can then grant more power to his followers. So maybe now he can grant his followers the ability to summon his Hell Hounds to fight with them. And on and on like this.

That was of course just a general idea and the specifics certainly need to be refined.

[z_man93]

BTW we may have to rethink the whole ascending by killing thing because I don't see the worshippers of good and life killing their demi-gods to take their place.

[BelDragos]

That is what I meant by the phrase "basic powers" a few posts ago. I just didn't make myself clear I meant Basic Demi-Powers. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Taking that into account, it seems we are basicly on the same page as far as the way characters would rise through the "levels" of Demi-Power. It would be something that is earned, not freely given away. That would make people who were also trying to work up to the position very angry.

The same way players develop their characters should be used for the Demi-Powers. They will have to work their way to the top like they had to when they were Mortal.

The same way D&D did in the 1985 release of the Immortals Rules.

They had different levels of status from Temporal, Celestial, Empyreal, Eternal, to the highest Hierarch. Each had Novice and 5 levels to climb to get to the top to progress to the next one. There was also a maximum number of Immortals allowed in each "level" and you had to have the required stats at a certain level.

I am not saying we need to use this set of rules. It is designed for a roster of about 2000 Immortals in all five Spheres. We will not have anywhere near .5% of that amount.

We can use it as an example to build upon.

;)

[Gopher616]

I like Rolfe's idea about some players NOT dieing and I also like the other idea with the color and death touch, I say both would be great.

when people are NOT dieing you could have this as Death's way to prove him worthy as Death and make this the way for him to get more powerful if he dues his duty and hunt these people down. This way Death could earn some exp or something.

And I feel great that you will actually try to put this in the game...never had any influence before.

anyway I just wanted to tell you that I'm still here although I am mostly lurking now...

[BelDragos]

Thanks for sticking around.

[z_man93]

Rolfe made the comment that the gods shape the world. But I feel that the gods shape the world by influencing the people, and the people shape the world. Rather than the gods shaping the world with their own habds. What I mean in terms of gameplay is that if I'm Death, I'm not the one out there killing but I am empowering my followers to kill, and using other means to fascilitate death.

I think this would be an accurate model for 2 reasons:

1) as Death I can only kill 1 person at a time (generally) but if I empower 100 followers, then they can kill 100 people at one time - it's not a perfect example but it's the same reason that Microsoft isn't a 1 man show, more can be done if Gates has 1000's of people doing his work while he manages and empowers them (ok, I know Gates isn't the man any more but you know what I'm saying).

2) this adds diversity to the type of character the players can be. Really, what's the frickin point if the demi-god is just another typical character but with more power? I think thats boring and a waste of a good idea. The demi-god should be a whole new type character which means they should be played differently. They should try to control and influence things on a grand scale, not individually.

So I was just wondering if people agree with my ideas or if you think a demi-god should just be like a normal character and interact with the world on an individual basis.

[UBIK]

I have nothing to say but i agree with the Z Man

[BelDragos]

The Demi-Powers should be seperate characters. They should be banned from taking direct action in the mortal world. This means they cannot go down to the mortal plane and kick ass against the normals. They would have to invest some power in creating an avitar. The avitar would be a normal character with a couple extras added and the player would have the option to back out of the form whenever they wanted or needed. The body would remain there as an NPC until the Demi-Power absorbs it. If the form is slain, then the Demi-Power would loose the amount of power invested for a time until it regenerates.

This would allow the players to interact with the world in general and specificly in person but with risks. If his avitar were slain, he would be weaker for a time and easier to destroy. This would inconvienance the Demi-Power greatly and make him ripe for replacement by mortals who are trying to defeat him.

Just some ideas. What do you think?

[UBIK]

Thats a great idea bel

[BelDragos]

It provides a limitation for the Demi-Power without limiting them too much. It also makes it safe for the Normals in the world too.

The Demi-Powers will have to extend themselves to attain worshipers but if they extend themselves too much, they actually weaken themselves. The player will have to find the balance between the two while keeping enough in reserve just in case there is an "incident" they have to attend.

[z_man93]

Yeah, thats what I was thinking. The demigods could create not only Avatars for themselves, but other NPCs to do their bidding. These can be NPCs to recruit followers, NPCs to exert influnce (ie: killing for the demi-god of death, healing for the demi-god of life) NPCs as followers (might not lend as much power to the demi-god as a PC follower but are much easier to make). I am basically starting to think of the demi-god position working as almost a strategy game (which it is). And I am envisioning it like playing a WarCraft type game.

As a new demigod you can only create simpler weak peons, but as your powers progress you can create more powerful and more influential beings. But having PC followers should always outweigh NPC followers. And you will use your followers to spread your influence and battle your enemies.

And just like Bel mentioned. I see the ability for the demigod to create an avatar that can be used to interact with normal mortals.


When I first thought of demigods I thought there might be 10 or 20. But if we're putting so much time and energy into the demigod issue, they should have a larger part in the game. So now I'm thinking that there should maybe be like 50. I think that might keep things in balance a bit better as well.

[UBIK]

Actually Z, I can vagely remember Rolfe stating that the CM and Demi-gods could choose a view of that like warcraft and play the same way for large movements of troops/npcs/ect.

[Gopher616]

I think that all of these ideas are really great...except having as many as 50 gods...I think that is a bit to much.

but does this mean that the demi-gods could live sort of in their own plane of excistance....like thier own dimension where every demi-god have their own realm?

[z_man93]

Yeah, this is a tough situation.

First, I don't think we should give the demi-gods their own realm, because then we might as well make a seperate game called demi-god wars, or something. We should definately keep the demi-gods in the same realm as the normal characters. I'm not saying that there can't be a special alternate dimension, but if there is it should be accessible to all and not be the primary area where demi-gods play.

Gopher, what was your idea for different realms?

As far as total number of demi-gods, 50 is too much but I just think that 10 or 15 would be too few. Maybe I'm wrong on that, maybe 10 or 15 would be perfect. I just want everyone to have the opportunity to experience the demi-god position, but 50 might be cheapening the position too much.

I know Rolfe had mentioned the "WarCraftish" interface for CMs, I wasn't aware of it for demi-gods. I guess I'll talk to him about it and maybe he already has this all thought through.

[BelDragos]

The Power of the Demi-Powers could directly depend on the number of characters who chose them. The Character Creation process could include a step where the choice of a diety is optional. All the current available Powers would be listed. A player could have the option of chosing not to follow a Deity.

Every character who chose a particular Demi-Power would give him Power to do their Godly stuff. This would be in addition to a standard base so the Demi-Power would not fall to Mortal Status unless they were slain/defeated/what-ever by a mortal.

The Roles of the Demi-Powers must be earned, not given away or it would not be fair to the other players. The only exception to this rule is the CM's or BHT Staff who are running the game. If they loose the position to a player, then the player get's to hold it as long as they can.

Whoever plays a Demi-Power must be an active player. Inactivity would cause them to use power, worshipers, and eventually, the Position.

[Gopher616]

yes having followers to worship you would work for the other demi-gods but not for Death, I don't think you should be able to worship Death. Death is something that has to be there for the world to function correctly. If Death would lose his followers the whole world would stop function so I don't think that is good for him.

and for realms I was thinking that either you have one realm for every demi-god or just one big for all of the demi-gods where they live and control their followers from. but you could have this realm open to all if they just find the teleporter there or something.

[BelDragos]

In the Dungeons and Dragons Immortals Set there was a city on the edge of everywhere (or some impossible place like that)named Pandius. Each Immortal had their own domain but they would meet in Pandius where it was forbidden to raise a hand to each other.

I am not saying we need to do this, It is just an idea.

[Gopher616]

I think thats a great idea...sort of like a council of demi-gods

[BelDragos]

A place where they cannot take physical action against the other Powers but they can make any and all the political actions they can muster.

[Gopher616]

that would be pretty sweet....

[BelDragos]

Yep, more than a simple hack-n-slash game. Imagine the level of Role-Playing....

[Gopher616]

*drool*

[BelDragos]

*hands Gopher 666 a roll of paper towels*

The idealistic view of this end of the game would be almost purely role-playing but there might be the occasional DUDE who gets lucky enough to beat an incumbant. If this happened, I really don't think the DUDE would be up to the challenge of the role-playing and would most likely fail in keeping the position.

I think there should be a grace period where if the replacement fails the replaced could somehow slip through a "back door" in the position to retake it.

The reasoning behind this is based on the superior knowledge and familarity of the origional Power. The time given as a grace period would depend on how long it took the origional to regenerate their powers.

The God who the origional worked for should have to approve the reposession which could be a Quest for them.

[Rend]

JUst make it like a political election but with no vote and only worshipers. For example, Demi-god 1 get ousted by the new and quite young demi-god 2. #2 got to power by making the worshipers of #1 think he/she was losing power in the whole demi-god scheme of things. Hence the up and comer sliped into power. Well after a little while the converted worshipers relized the new guy dosn't have the respect of the counsil and really has no power. Once again having a change of heart the get rid of #2 and start to worship #1 again. Hense " No worshipers no power". Obviously the should be some shady ways to deal with getting in the cousel to. I don't think you need to worry about people not worshiping need gods. Every one will want to worship the biggies Death and Life. If they don't? Make NPC's worship them.

[Gopher616]

but there has to be some way to become a demi-god without being one before otherwise no regular gamer would beable to be one...

[BelDragos]

What I meant was this.

Let's say you were the Demi-God of Gophers and Rend came along one day and attacked you while you were overseeing a war between the gophers and the prarrie dogs. You had a few Avitars in the field to command troops so your resources were spread very thin.

Rend comes along and sees you are vulnerable so he draws his Gopher Trap of Slaying.

The next bit is particularly bloody so we will skip it to keep our show a family show.

You were ousted and the Prarie Dogs won. The gophers lost their Patron's suport. You lie low and try to gather your power.

Now Rend prances about bragging how he slew a Demi-Power and took it's place. He is not doing his job, just lauding in the position.

Gopher petitions his God of Nature for permission to retake his spot. He gets the word from above and while Rend is prancing about having fun, you quietly regain the support of your fallen rodents.

You kick him out.

You used your knowledge and connections to win.

[Gopher616]

Ah! I see your point now....and yeah that would work out pretty good...

[BelDragos]

Of course the Gods would be the BHT Staff.

The Devs and the CMs. They would also play the Demi-Powers until a player earned a position. That is important. The positions must be earned, not given as rewards. Otherwise people could scream favoritism.

[triangle]

ok. my 2 cents.

demi-gods.. the more they do their jobs the better the gods like them.. the more votes that they are doing their jobs the better their protection is. someone who isnt doing their jobs will slowly lose their protections.. they will become more and more like a mortal in their protection abilities... which will make it a lot easier for other mortals to defeat them.. their offensive power shouldnt change. a demi-god should still be a force to be feared.

also.. the account of a demi-god should require additional password and internet location security.. i dont want accounts being broken into simply because others are jelious.

[BelDragos]

Our ideas would meld together very nicely.